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  • Originally posted by seer View Post
    Yet Communism is in direct contradiction to Constitutional principles of private property rights. And that is un-american.

    https://www.pbs.org/tpt/constitution...operty-rights/
    And if the American population said "that's what we want" and amended the constitution accordingly, nothing could be "more American." Like I said - I doubt it will happen. I certainly would not welcome it. I would be vocal about resisting it myself. I doubt I would continue to live here if it actually did happen. But I would respect the right of the people of this country, from whom the power of government is derived, to make their choice for themselves.
    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

    I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
      It's a steaming load of crap for one person to declare how others must "come to the table". That you buy this crap is truly disturbing.
      CP, throughout U.S. history, those who are active and engaged have challenged those who are not to "get off their collective Edited by a Moderator." The founding fathers did it. The abolitionists did it. The prohibitionists did it. The leaders of the civil rights era did it. Suffragettes did it. Leaders of the LGBTQ community did it. You cannot truly foster change without enough "bodies" to be heard. Getting the troops rallied for a cause has a long tradition.

      The question is - what is the cause? Is it to finally change our society to make ALL people, regardless of color, sex, or sexual orientation, to be treated equally under the law? Or is it to incite people to shove those who disagree with them "out of the country?"

      Which would you prefer to be part of?

      Moderated By: DesertBerean

      Please remember not to use the word for donkeys in reference to human anatomy.

      ***If you wish to take issue with this notice DO NOT do so in this thread.***
      Contact the forum moderator or an administrator in Private Message or email instead. If you feel you must publicly complain or whine, please take it to the Padded Room unless told otherwise.

      Last edited by DesertBerean; 07-18-2019, 11:37 PM.
      The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

      I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
        Again, she blatantly implied. I never said she said exactly that. And it is clear that she is race baiting and telling brown and black people how their voice should sound.
        And you clearly are layering meaning on a set of sentences that do not have to be interpreted in the manner you are interpreting them. It leaves me wondering why you have a need to do this.

        Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
        Because she is clearly a racist.
        Maybe - but not "clearly." The great challenge of racism is that it commonly begets more of itself. Black children are disenfranchised and lack equal access to secondary education - so "affirmative action" is created to fix the problem, only all it does is perpetuate the problem because affirmative action still uses race as its basis.

        That being said, there is nothing implicitly racist about a person calling for the other members of their race/sex/gender to stand up and be counted. MLK did it. Millicent Fawcett did it. Gandhi did it. Nelson Mandella did it.

        Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
        "They would have you, and I mean the proverbial 'they,' believe that what is fraying at the fabric of America, what is killing us as a country, is identity politics," "Let me say this about identity: It matters. I am black with a capital 'B,' I'm woman with a capital 'W.' I'm black and a woman, and unapologetically proud to be both."
        And to this I say "yes!" I hope the day comes when people feel affirmed enough in their own society that they do not need to stand and say these words. But until that time comes, the voices who say "there is nothing wrong with being a woman" and "there is nothing wrong with being black" and "there is nothing wrong with being gay" are speaking for those who are constantly spoken about, and treated, as if there is something wrong with who and what they are.

        So I applaud her words. I think we should ALL applaud those words. I think we should ALL strive to create a society where no one feels a need to have to SAY those words - because pride in who and what we are in endemic to the society.

        In my lifetime? I sadly doubt it...
        The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

        I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
          “We don’t need any more white faces that don’t want to be a white voice".

          Racist?
          A group of blond-haired kids in a middle school are known to be the bullies. They specifically target red-headed children. For years, this dynamic plays on, as class after class comes through. There are always the blond bullies who lead the effort, the red-heads who get hammered regularly, and then the "silent majority" who deny there is a problem, and shun the red-heads out of fear of the response of the bullies. Demeaning red-heads becomes a widely accepted social norm in the school. "Don't be red" or "You're so red" is as common in that school as "don't be gay" or "you're so gay" is in the modern school.

          Then a young red-headed boy moves in, and quickly realizes the situation. Rather than conforming, he begins to call out the behavior. He rallies the red-heads. He gets some of the fence-sitters to speak out. He declares "I'm red-headed and proud of it!"

          Some of the bullies and some of the "go along with the crowd" group object. "What makes you think you're better than us!?" Why can't we say "blonde and proud of it?!"


          The fact is, both "black and proud" and "white and proud" are racial expressions. They should be as innocuous as "Danish and proud" or "Woman and proud" or "Jewish and proud." They become "racist" when "proud" implies "better than you." And we cannot ignore the history. There is no extensive history of black people systemically enslaving and/or demeaning white people in this country. There is little history of law that assign a value to a white person that is a fraction of the value assigned to a black person.

          So are "white and proud" and "black and proud" racist statements? Maybe. Given the history - and the continuing disparity between people of different colors - "white and proud" is a problem (for now) and should be eschewed. All it does is pour oil on the fire. "Black and proud" is unfortunate, but understandable (IMO). I hope it never means more than "I deserve to be treated equally" (which is how I think it is usually used). And I hope it can someday disappear as a needed statement.
          Last edited by carpedm9587; 07-18-2019, 11:40 AM.
          The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

          I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

          Comment


          • Originally posted by seer View Post
            I will keep an eye out...
            As we've seen in previous posts, he just denies he's committing whataboutisms when called on it.

            Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
            She blatantly implied that blacks are not really black unless they agree with her and her ideas of blackness.
            I just watched the video, and didn't get that from her speech at all. Here's some fuller context,

            "I don't want to bring a chair to an old table. This is the time to shake the table. This is the time to redefine that table. Because if you're going to come to this table, and if all of you who have aspirations of running for office. For every lived experience and identity you represent. If you are not prepared to come to that table and represent that voice, don’t come, because we don't need any more brown faces that don't want to be a brown voice. We don’t need black faces that don't want to be a black voice. We don't need Muslims that don’t want to be a Muslim voice. We don’t need queers that don't want to be a queer voice. And if you’re worried about being marginalized and stereotyped, please don't even show up because we need you to represent that voice."


            She's telling people in politics to champion those identities/experiences they represent. That's not saying "you're not really black if you don't agree with my ideas of black," it's saying, "if you're running for office and you're black/brown/Muslim/gay/etc., then you ought to speak up for your people. We don't need people in politics who are afraid to do that."

            Now, I do think there are a number of problems with the speech. First of all, elected officials should ideally not be the voice of just those ethnic/religious demographics they personally identify with. They should represent as best they can all of their constituents, regardless of (and perhaps, despite) personal identity. I get the feeling that she wouldn't be comfortable with someone making a similar speech with "white," and "Christian" in the list of identities/experiences. Second of all, who specifically does she have in mind in politics who isn't voicing the plight of those they identify with? I doubt anyone's doing that. This seems like a razzmatazz type speech that gets a lot of cheers but is mostly empty and meaningless.


            On the whole issue of Trump's words on leaving the country...terribly worded, and ignorant as usual. Out and out racist though? I don't know. Insensitive, totally. The fact that he then went on and added, "Then come back and show us how...its done" doesn't strike me as out and out racist so much as a "if you think fixing a nation is so easy why don't you do it, and get back to me." I can see implicit racism in his comments though. Perhaps even unintentional. His language that they "originally came from countries whose governments are a complete and total catastrophe, the worst, most corrupt and inept anywhere in the world (if they even have a functioning government at all)" is a reference to their ethnic background more so than their actual nation of origin (with the exception of Ilhan Omar who came over at the age of 10). Was that written in ignorance to their national origin? I don't know. At the very least what he wrote strikes me as xenophobic. It's not something a president should ever say, but I honestly don't think he's together enough to really grasp how ignorant the things he says are. Like, I honestly don't think that he thinks he's a racist, but he does seem to see "those people" as something different and lesser than "his people," whatever "those" and "his" people are.
            Last edited by Adrift; 07-18-2019, 11:46 AM.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
              And if the American population said "that's what we want" and amended the constitution accordingly, nothing could be "more American." Like I said - I doubt it will happen. I certainly would not welcome it. I would be vocal about resisting it myself. I doubt I would continue to live here if it actually did happen. But I would respect the right of the people of this country, from whom the power of government is derived, to make their choice for themselves.
              Carp, so in your view nothing could be considered un-american as long as the majority voted it in, or voted it out. The First Amendment? Freedom of the press, religion? The right of trial? If that is the case Carp, there is no definition of Americanism, anything could be labeled "American." Nothing un-American.
              Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

              Comment


              • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                And you clearly are layering meaning on a set of sentences that do not have to be interpreted in the manner you are interpreting them. It leaves me wondering why you have a need to do this.
                Yeah, no I am not. Identity politics is what this is about. She admits it straight away.


                Maybe - but not "clearly." The great challenge of racism is that it commonly begets more of itself. Black children are disenfranchised and lack equal access to secondary education - so "affirmative action" is created to fix the problem, only all it does is perpetuate the problem because affirmative action still uses race as its basis.

                That being said, there is nothing implicitly racist about a person calling for the other members of their race/sex/gender to stand up and be counted. MLK did it. Millicent Fawcett did it. Gandhi did it. Nelson Mandella did it.
                That's not what she was saying. In fact, it's the exact opposite. Blacks, Browns, Muslims, and Queers that don't "stand up and be counted" as their labeled identity are not wanted according to her. Identity politics of this stripe are deeply and inherently racist.


                And to this I say "yes!" I hope the day comes when people feel affirmed enough in their own society that they do not need to stand and say these words. But until that time comes, the voices who say "there is nothing wrong with being a woman" and "there is nothing wrong with being black" and "there is nothing wrong with being gay" are speaking for those who are constantly spoken about, and treated, as if there is something wrong with who and what they are.

                So I applaud her words. I think we should ALL applaud those words. I think we should ALL strive to create a society where no one feels a need to have to SAY those words - because pride in who and what we are in endemic to the society.

                In my lifetime? I sadly doubt it...
                Identity politics are not ok. MLK is turning over in his grave...
                That's what
                - She

                Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
                - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

                I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
                - Stephen R. Donaldson

                Comment


                • Originally posted by seer View Post
                  Carp, so in your view nothing could be considered un-american as long as the majority voted it in, or voted it out.
                  In my view - Lincoln said it best. The heart of the American experiment is "government of the people, by the people, for the people,"

                  Originally posted by seer View Post
                  The First Amendment? Freedom of the press, religion? The right of trial? If that is the case Carp, there is no definition of Americanism, anything could be labeled "American." Nothing un-American.
                  Labeling things "unamerican" is kind of your hobby, Seer. For some reason, you feel a need to apply this label to those who disagree with your particular idea of what America should be. I tend not to use the word, because I can think of no Americans who would resist the notion that government should be of the people, by the people, and for the people. We will differ widely on what that government should look like, how it should operate, and even who should be allowed to participate. But the only unamerican thing I can think of is denying others the right to have and voice their opinion on how we should be structured and how we should function.
                  The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                  I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
                    Yeah, no I am not. Identity politics is what this is about. She admits it straight away.
                    As I have noted, BTC - ALL politics are about identity. And she makes no bones about her identity and that it informs her politics. Your statement, however, was that anyone who disagreed with her was "not black" or "not brown" in her view. That is meaning you have, AFAICT, added to her statement. Not only that, but the statement is cherry-picked from a wider context (which I had not thought to check). Adrift's wider context shows this to be true.

                    Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
                    That's not what she was saying. In fact, it's the exact opposite. Blacks, Browns, Muslims, and Queers that don't "stand up and be counted" as their labeled identity are not wanted according to her. Identity politics of this stripe are deeply and inherently racist.
                    What she actually SAID was "we have no more need of..." In other words, those who will not exercise their voices are not needed. The great silent, unengaged, mass is not helping. And, as Adrift's wider context shows, she was specifically speaking to politicians.

                    Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
                    Identity politics are not ok. MLK is turning over in his grave...
                    The right has done a good job of turning "identity politics" into a mob-chant. I don't have an issue with "identity politics" because I recognize that all politics are about identity - yours included.
                    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                    I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                      In my view - Lincoln said it best. The heart of the American experiment is "government of the people, by the people, for the people."


                      But the only unamerican thing I can think of is denying others the right to have and voice their opinion on how we should be structured and how we should function.
                      Why? If that is what the majority wants?
                      Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post


                        Identity politics are not ok. MLK is turning over in his grave...
                        While both sides are guilty of it, in recent years it has become an essential if not key part of the left-wing's play book.

                        I'm always still in trouble again

                        "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                        "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                        "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post

                          The right has done a good job of turning "identity politics" into a mob-chant. I don't have an issue with "identity politics" because I recognize that all politics are about identity - yours included.
                          Which explains why it is the left that actually lists chants for any and every occasion. For instance:

                          Source: Chants for Changing the World


                          a resource for left-wing activists


                          how to use this site

                          We are working to make chants easily and readily accessible for protests, strikes, and other demonstrations. We want to make it easier for activists from around the country (and around the world) to share chants, songs, and more as a resource.

                          That said, since we are operating out of the US, the chants here are primarily going to be in English and Spanish, the two most commonly spoken languages in this country. We hope that as this resource grows, we can expand to include more languages.

                          Using this site is (hopefully) very easy. Every chant is tagged by subject. So, for example, if you’re at a protest against police brutality, check out the “police brutality” tag, and maybe “racism.”

                          We know that activists think up incredible chants on the fly, so when you get a chance, submit your chants here so other activists can use them as well.



                          Source

                          © Copyright Original Source


                          And I'm sure it is just some odd coincidence that the first category is anti-Jewish/Israeli chants and has nothing to do with the fact that the left has now been welcoming anti-semites into their midsts, embracing them with open arms and defending what they say no matter how vile.

                          Oh, and they're hardly the only site. There is also the Abundant Activism Chant Sheet and even chant generators as well.

                          I'm always still in trouble again

                          "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                          "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                          "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                            As I have noted, BTC - ALL politics are about identity.
                            When reduced down to meaninglessness, perhaps. But if we grant your proposal, then white supremacy is no different than black identity politics.

                            And she makes no bones about her identity and that it informs her politics.
                            And it is just as racist as white identity politics.

                            Your statement, however, was that anyone who disagreed with her was "not black" or "not brown" in her view. That is meaning you have, AFAICT, added to her statement. Not only that, but the statement is cherry-picked from a wider context (which I had not thought to check). Adrift's wider context shows this to be true.
                            Nope. That wasn't my statement's intent. She was encouraging racial identity politics and said she didn't want anyone "at the table" that didn't play her racist game.


                            What she actually SAID was "we have no more need of..." In other words, those who will not exercise their voices are not needed. The great silent, unengaged, mass is not helping. And, as Adrift's wider context shows, she was specifically speaking to politicians.
                            Yes, to politicians and aspiring politicians to use their race, and if they didn't, she didn't want them. Racist at its core.


                            The right has done a good job of turning "identity politics" into a mob-chant.
                            And the left has made it nearly their entire platform.

                            I don't have an issue with "identity politics" because I recognize that all politics are about identity - yours included.
                            Then you have no idea what identity politics are...
                            That's what
                            - She

                            Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
                            - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

                            I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
                            - Stephen R. Donaldson

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                              A group of blond-haired kids in a middle school are known to be the bullies.
                              Thanks for another story time, but I ask again....

                              “We don’t need any more white faces that don’t want to be a white voice".

                              Racist?
                              The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
                                NOTHING can justify the inhumane treatment these people are receiving at the border at the hands of the US government. Fix that first, like any civilized country should, and deal constructively with the rest later.
                                Congress is the one who controls the purse-strings. And liberals were even protesting when Wayfare wanted to donate mattresses to the camps. "Better conditions" is not what they want. They want the conditions to be bad so they can blame the Republicans.

                                Comment

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