Kids In Cages...

[oxmixmudd]

This whole border issue has me a little torn. I absolutely empathize for the people trying to get in. I think it's so sad to see people so desperate, and I can't fault anyone for doing whatever they can to make their lives, and the lives of their families better. Also, I find the concept of borders at all a bit bizarre when I really think about it. These man-made imaginary demarcations are supposed to keep these people in, and these people out. Why? Because we say so. On the flip side, however, borders are a necessary evil for any nation to keep order. Every nation, even the most liberal of Europe's nations, strongly enforce border laws. There are real practical reasons for borders. My brother is in Border Patrol, and his view of circumstances on the ground floor are far different from how the media often paints things. He's found families in the desert, has held and cared for children, and been righteously angry at parents who've essentially abused their children trying to get them across the border. He gets angry at news that shows him and his fellow agents not caring for these people, when they do all they can within their power to make their stay comfortable while they're being processed. Feeding them, clothing them, giving them medical attention, and providing them cool comfortable places to sleep after long treks through the desert.

He's caught the same people over and over again...has even become friends with some of them because they attempt to cross so often they've become regulars. He's been in since the Bush administration, and has seen a massive influx of immigrants attempting to get into the nation because of the really real fear that this will be their last chance to get in before a wall goes up, and the road to the promised land will be closed off. He's dealt with countless people claiming asylum, people who do not remotely fit the qualifications for asylum, but are told to ask for it (by pro-illegal immigration groups IN THE US) because it ties hands up, costs resources, and in years past meant that, because of limited resources, their cases weren't read for months or years, they were very loosely detained, and it allowed seekers to eventually get lost in the system, and filter into the US never showing up when their court case was eventually called. He's actually dealt with a few repeat asylum seekers. People who've had their cases reviewed, turned back, and who attempted to cross over again, and when caught, again sought asylum.

It gets so frustrating reading the news, and then hearing how different things really are when I talk to my brother on the ground floor. One of the most frustrating things I see in headlines is supposedly how racist border patrol agents are in general. Like, the only reason someone would ever become an agent is because they hate Latinos. The truth of the matter, though, is that most of my brother's border patrolling co-workers and close friends are, themselves, Latino. You have to be relatively fluent in Spanish to even work the border patrol, and those who are here legally are often the most vocal voices against those who cross illegally. And the border patrol is doing real good. My brother has made a number of major drug busts, has dealt with all manner of evil and abusive coyotes (those who smuggle people across the border for profit) sex-traffickers, and the like. My brother is one of the most compassionate people I know. He too struggles with wanting to truly help people crossing the border, and realizing that there is a need for our borders. He has a conscience about this whole thing, and sincerely tries to help those who attempt to cross illegally where and when he can, and I don't think he's the exception to the rule.

- Thanks for that update adrift. It is always good to get an unfiltered view from a trusted source. So this report would tend to suggest that at least some of what we see is agendized propaganda, not that it is a given your brother or his fellow workers are necessarily the norm. Or that there are not exceptions that are evil.

this reminds me too of how things pan out on the media as it relates to law enforcement. Most are in it for good, but the bad ones tarnish the reputation of so many, and then the special interests pick up on that and media looking for the sensational to get ratings emphasize it.

Hard to know what reality is. But again, thanks for adding your brother's perspective to our understanding of the situation.

Jim

[Sparko]

That is an excuse Sparko. We are required by our faith to help the poor. Period. And trying to impose the minority exception on the majority trying to get in here is just not right. If 10% are trying to get here for the wrong reasons, that still leaves 90% struggling and enduring horrible conditions hoping for a better life to the point they are willing to endure what you showed in that picture. And we are not allowed by our faith to dismiss that or just look the other way and pretend it doesn't exist or is not happening.

Jim

We aren't required by faith to let our land be overrun by people who think we have it better here than they to there. If they want to come here, then follow the rules. We allow refugees and immigrants in all the time. Just do it the right way. And we should be helping our OWN poor before we help people from another country. We aren't. Look at inner city families being terrorized by gangs. Why aren't we helping them?

And if they are fleeing for their lives like you said, then why do they all flee 3000 miles to the USA? Why don't they flee to Mexico? or Brazil? Or Argentina? Or some other South American country? No, they all get in a big caravan, and march across 3000 miles of dangerous terrain to get to our country, a country that doesn't even speak their language. That doesn't sound like fleeing for their lives to me.

[Sparko]

I would tend to agree that a hispanic pastor that has dedicated his life to treating and caring for immigrants would be very unlikely to lie about what he saw. The disparity could be lying on the AOC party side, or it could be deception/oversight on the part of the facility (e.g. after the AOC report they got reamed by their supervisory staff and cleaned things up)

These pastors have been visiting on a regular basis, before and after AOC made her one visit.

[Cow Poke]

I don't really care for the sentiment personally. At least, not how it's being used here. It taking something that's meant for good, something we should be doing for both friends and enemies, and is being used condescendingly. Makes me wince whenever I see a Christian using it in that way.

It's a politely dismissive way of not getting into an argument.

But, sheeeesh, I guess I'll have to stop using it here because people can be so sensitive....

[Zymologist]

It's a politely dismissive way of not getting into an argument.

But, sheeeesh, I guess I'll have to stop using it here because people can be so sensitive....

Aw, bless your heart.

[Cow Poke]

Aw, bless your heart.

[Sparko]

So it was a straw man. We are not discussing whether boarders should be open or not. We are discussing how you treat actual human beings when they arrive at the boarder. Putting children in cages is not morally justifiable and you should know so. You can be opposed to open boarders and still find prisoning of children to be completely unjustifiable. There is no contradiction (which, of course, you already knew).



In what way is my thinking simplistic? And talking about the sword when children are in cages is somehow a more sofisticated moral thinking?

I seem to remember someone who made some very simple guidelines on how human beings should treat each other. You may actually know him.

it's BORDER. And "sophisticated"

[Teallaura]

It's a politely dismissive way of not getting into an argument.

But, sheeeesh, I guess I'll have to stop using it here because people can be so sensitive....

You do NOT want to know what it sounds like you really mean to say. There's this old joke - well, I never repeat it and it's certainly not Tweb friendly.

[Cow Poke]

it's BORDER. And "sophisticated"

Who died and made you the prodder of bovines?

[Teallaura]

This whole border issue has me a little torn. I absolutely empathize for the people trying to get in. I think it's so sad to see people so desperate, and I can't fault anyone for doing whatever they can to make their lives, and the lives of their families better. Also, I find the concept of borders at all a bit bizarre when I really think about it. These man-made imaginary demarcations are supposed to keep these people in, and these people out. Why? Because we say so. ...

Okay, I gotta ask - do you have the same issue with doors?

[Teallaura]

it's BORDER. And "sophisticated"

I already told you to get the cutlery away from him...

[Sparko]

What Im addressing teal is the tendency to paint the people at the border as objects, as criminals, as a danger to us. In the picture Sparko posted, he attacked the parents. What kind of parent could put their kid through this. He ignored the obvious human question of what kind of horrible conditions are they fleeing that would make parents believe they must endure this for their own and their children's well being.

Sparko's question assumes the immigrating parents are bad people, negligent, selfish. Why assume that? Why dehumanize them that way. Instead I propose ask what could be so bad that a normal parent who loves their children would believe that enduring what that picture shows is the best long term option? Asking that question brings us farther away from judgement and closer to compassion.

Jim

Because we are talking about living in inhumane conditions. Which their parents put them in in the first place. Again, why did they drag them 3,000 miles across hostile desert when Mexico offered them asylum? Why didn't they go to a neighboring country? If you are in danger you don't put yourself and your family in more danger when you can easily go someplace closer, and a place with your own culture and language. I wouldn't drag my family to Brazil by foot if this country ever went to hell. I would go to Canada. Or the closest safe place. You are buying into the Liberal narrative and not questioning anything Jim. The liberals are even sending out representatives to coach these people on what to say.

[Sparko]

So what you are saying is that to have the moral authority to ask people to see these people with humanity and compassion I must first invite 20 of them to live in my home, feed them and clothe them?


I dont think so.


Jim

I am sure if a homeless person came to your door you would do your best to feed him. Maybe if 5 or 6 followed. But what if then 500 homeless people set up camp on your lawn and demanded you feed them and that they can live on your lawn as long as they want, and say they won't go to any of your neighbors, they insist on YOUR lawn? I think you would probably call the police.

[Sparko]

And that is the heart of it. Very many people in these discussions think they can avoid their moral obligation by dehumanizing those in need. That is how they "solve" the problem and live and talk in a contradiction to what one would assume they would actually think about other persons. This is also why they have such a hard time adressing this from the perspective of the innocent children since it is much harder to dehumanize them.

Kinda like pro-choice does with fetuses? The same liberals that are crying "what about the children?" in this case, actively celebrate the murder of millions of unborn children each year with parties. Cuz they aren't human.

I feel for those at the border, but what can we do that is not being done? Congress needs to send more money down there. And we need to build a wall to discourage these 10,000 people caravans from coming.

[Sparko]

And causing mass starvation improves this how, exactly? Compassionately throwing cinder block to a drowning man instead of a life saver is just as bad in outcome as deliberately throwing the blocks. You are advocating for humanely making things worse while demonizing anyone who doesn't take your high minded, destructive approach.

I see people who wouldn't be so darn desperate had we done the hard part years ago. Using the US economy to try and make up for decades of political stupidity at home like this will result in just sinking the life raft - everybody drowning is not a solution.

Prodding, pushing, cajoling, bribing and sometimes forcing these countries to address and fix their internal problems is what we can do that will work - but not if we take the internal pressure off by letting people come here.

As their countries improve, they have far greater opportunity than even we can offer - someday, they'll give us a run for our money. But not if we don't stop the nonsense now.

exactly, If the democrats had acted a year or two ago when Trump was saying there is a crisis at the border, instead of using it as a political puck to call it "a manufactured crisis" and let it build into what it is today, we wouldn't have the problem we have today. THEY were the ones who "manufactured" the crisis by hamstringing Trump and not doing their jobs. They are still doing that. They are letting these people suffer just to score political points against Trump. THAT is pure evil, but I don't think Oxmix and Company can see that.