Kids In Cages...

[Teallaura]

exactly, If the democrats had acted a year or two ago when Trump was saying there is a crisis at the border, instead of using it as a political puck to call it "a manufactured crisis" and let it build into what it is today, we wouldn't have the problem we have today. THEY were the ones who "manufactured" the crisis by hamstringing Trump and not doing their jobs. They are still doing that. They are letting these people suffer just to score political points against Trump. THAT is pure evil, but I don't think Oxmix and Company can see that.

I agree, but honestly, this goes all the way back to Reagan. Every admin has had a chance to say no more and put diplomatic pressure on bad actors - but none really stuck to it.

Heck, part of me wants to just let them in - but the rational part realizes it is just compounding the problem and in the long run, limiting their options.

[Adrift]

Okay, I gotta ask - do you have the same issue with doors?

No, but I see a bit of a distinction between one's personal/private domain/abode and that of the arbitrary lines we use to demarcate national borders (and yes, I'm using the word "arbitrary" loosely here).

[Adrift]

Heck, part of me wants to just let them in - but the rational part realizes it is just compounding the problem and in the long run, limiting their options.

I'm sure there are valid reasons this is NOT a good idea, but I'm wondering if a decent compromise between right and left might be to nationalize current illegal immigrants already in the nation in exchange for full support for a wall, and more personnel (including judges) to help process legitimate asylum seekers.

[oxmixmudd]

I am sure if a homeless person came to your door you would do your best to feed him. Maybe if 5 or 6 followed. But what if then 500 homeless people set up camp on your lawn and demanded you feed them and that they can live on your lawn as long as they want, and say they won't go to any of your neighbors, they insist on YOUR lawn? I think you would probably call the police.

The border problem has to be handled by the government overall. The point I'm making is specific to the implications of CP's comment. I don't think you need to be directly involved in trying to solve a problem before you have any authority to comment on the problem itself, or on other people being callous in regard to the problem. Some things are just morally wrong and you don't need any specific personal moral authority to say they are wrong. For example - I can say rape is wrong or that it is wrong to treat a rape victim callously regardless of whether or not I know anyone that was raped or was somehow personally impacted by rape, And I can say those things whether or not I have ever worked as a rape counselor.

Jim

[oxmixmudd]

I'm sure there are valid reasons this is NOT a good idea, but I'm wondering if a decent compromise between right and left might be to nationalize current illegal immigrants already in the nation in exchange for full support for a wall, and more personnel (including judges) to help process legitimate asylum seekers.

You'd need money to filter the 'decent' illegals from the indecent ones. There are still people here illegally that are truly bad people, not just desperate people seeking a better life, and they need to be deported not made citizens by default. It really is a mess made by a lot of people over a good bit of time. It's just gotten a good bit worse with the 'hit back 10 times harder' mentality currently driving things.

Jim

[Teallaura]

I'm sure there are valid reasons this is NOT a good idea, but I'm wondering if a decent compromise between right and left might be to nationalize current illegal immigrants already in the nation in exchange for full support for a wall, and more personnel (including judges) to help process legitimate asylum seekers.

No. Been there, done that, got WAY TOO MANY of the lousy tee shirts (the aforementioned Reagan). This idea just kicks the can down the road - and when the next little face pops up, how do you say no?

We did amnesty - and none of the conditions for doing it were ever met. Democrats have no incentive to actually build a wall once they get their new version of amnesty. And more judges? That's an end run around existing immigration limits - minus the part about debating new ones.

As a result, this isn't an offer of compromise - it's an offer to let conservatives capitulate.

N. O.


Yeah, the reason it's not a good idea is most people won't let you back stab them twice. History ain't always fair to the well intentioned young.

[Teallaura]

No, but I see a bit of a distinction between one's personal/private domain/abode and that of the arbitrary lines we use to demarcate national borders (and yes, I'm using the word "arbitrary" loosely here).

Walls are no less arbitrary - they are just the end result of lines someone drew on another set of lines someone else drew in a plat book.

[Sparko]

The border problem has to be handled by the government overall. The point I'm making is specific to the implications of CP's comment. I don't think you need to be directly involved in trying to solve a problem before you have any authority to comment on the problem itself, or on other people being callous in regard to the problem. Some things are just morally wrong and you don't need any specific personal moral authority to say they are wrong. For example - I can say rape is wrong or that it is wrong to treat a rape victim callously regardless of whether or not I know anyone that was raped or was somehow personally impacted by rape, And I can say those things whether or not I have ever worked as a rape counselor.

Jim

You claim we aren't expected to do anything personally about the border, yet you are holding us morally responsible for apparently not making the correct comments that you agree with. You want us to "virtue signal" with you or we are evil and callous.

Jim, we all agree these people need to be treated humanely. I haven't said or seen anyone else say they shouldn't be. I just doubt the situation is as the news and the democrats are reporting it. If it is, then they need to fix it. But the solution isn't to just open the borders and let everyone in. The solution is to stop the flood.

You also seem to think it is immoral to want to stop people from even coming here illegally. We disagree on that. Again you think they are fleeing for their lives and I don't. Because if they were, they would have stopped in Mexico, or went to another nearby safe country instead of all coming here en masse. They also gather for months to create these caravans. If your life is in danger in your home would you sit around for months waiting on a huge caravan to gather? If there is such danger to these people, why are the criminals that are killing them in their neighborhoods not killing them in the caravans? Sitting ducks.

[rogue06]

I'm sure there are valid reasons this is NOT a good idea, but I'm wondering if a decent compromise between right and left might be to nationalize current illegal immigrants already in the nation in exchange for full support for a wall, and more personnel (including judges) to help process legitimate asylum seekers.

That has been tried. Guess what part was reneged on.

[rogue06]

Yeah, the reason it's not a good idea is most people won't let you back stab them twice. History ain't always fair to the well intentioned young.

The old fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.

[Leonhard]

The same paradox of gun control laws, seem to fit here. Talk of a wall, and attempts to build or expand the wall, increases immigration.

[Cow Poke]

The same paradox of gun control laws, seem to fit here. Talk of a wall, and attempts to build or expand the wall, increases immigration.

Could be, but talks of immigration reform do the same thing, only worse - until it actually happens. (IF it ever happens)

[NorrinRadd]

This whole border issue has me a little torn. I absolutely empathize for the people trying to get in. I think it's so sad to see people so desperate, and I can't fault anyone for doing whatever they can to make their lives, and the lives of their families better. Also, I find the concept of borders at all a bit bizarre when I really think about it. These man-made imaginary demarcations are supposed to keep these people in, and these people out. Why? Because we say so. On the flip side, however, borders are a necessary evil for any nation to keep order. Every nation, even the most liberal of Europe's nations, strongly enforce border laws. There are real practical reasons for borders. My brother is in Border Patrol, and his view of circumstances on the ground floor are far different from how the media often paints things. He's found families in the desert, has held and cared for children, and been righteously angry at parents who've essentially abused their children trying to get them across the border. He gets angry at news that shows him and his fellow agents not caring for these people, when they do all they can within their power to make their stay comfortable while they're being processed. Feeding them, clothing them, giving them medical attention, and providing them cool comfortable places to sleep after long treks through the desert.

He's caught the same people over and over again...has even become friends with some of them because they attempt to cross so often they've become regulars. He's been in since the Bush administration, and has seen a massive influx of immigrants attempting to get into the nation because of the really real fear that this will be their last chance to get in before a wall goes up, and the road to the promised land will be closed off. He's dealt with countless people claiming asylum, people who do not remotely fit the qualifications for asylum, but are told to ask for it (by pro-illegal immigration groups IN THE US) because it ties hands up, costs resources, and in years past meant that, because of limited resources, their cases weren't read for months or years, they were very loosely detained, and it allowed seekers to eventually get lost in the system, and filter into the US never showing up when their court case was eventually called. He's actually dealt with a few repeat asylum seekers. People who've had their cases reviewed, turned back, and who attempted to cross over again, and when caught, again sought asylum.

It gets so frustrating reading the news, and then hearing how different things really are when I talk to my brother on the ground floor. One of the most frustrating things I see in headlines is supposedly how racist border patrol agents are in general. Like, the only reason someone would ever become an agent is because they hate Latinos. The truth of the matter, though, is that most of my brother's border patrolling co-workers and close friends are, themselves, Latino. You have to be relatively fluent in Spanish to even work the border patrol, and those who are here legally are often the most vocal voices against those who cross illegally. And the border patrol is doing real good. My brother has made a number of major drug busts, has dealt with all manner of evil and abusive coyotes (those who smuggle people across the border for profit) sex-traffickers, and the like. My brother is one of the most compassionate people I know. He too struggles with wanting to truly help people crossing the border, and realizing that there is a need for our borders. He has a conscience about this whole thing, and sincerely tries to help those who attempt to cross illegally where and when he can, and I don't think he's the exception to the rule.

FWIW, and you may like this or hate it, this whole post is something one can hear almost daily on Fox News.

[NorrinRadd]

exactly, If the democrats had acted a year or two ago when Trump was saying there is a crisis at the border, instead of using it as a political puck to call it "a manufactured crisis" and let it build into what it is today, we wouldn't have the problem we have today. THEY were the ones who "manufactured" the crisis by hamstringing Trump and not doing their jobs. They are still doing that. They are letting these people suffer just to score political points against Trump. THAT is pure evil, but I don't think Oxmix and Company can see that.

IIRC, we can lay the ax even further down on the tree, back when Tip O'Neil hosed Reagan on the other half of the amnesty deal.

D'oh! Just saw Teal's post right below!

[JimL]

You'd need money to filter the 'decent' illegals from the indecent ones. There are still people here illegally that are truly bad people, not just desperate people seeking a better life, and they need to be deported not made citizens by default. It really is a mess made by a lot of people over a good bit of time. It's just gotten a good bit worse with the 'hit back 10 times harder' mentality currently driving things.

Jim

There are some truly bad people everywhere, Jim. Undocumented immigrants are, as a percentage, far less likely to commit crimes than are citizens. What the right does, and what Trump himself does, racist that he is, is to find an incidence of a violent criminal act by an immigrant and then use it as a propaganda tool to make all immigrants look bad, to demonize them all, and to popularize the building of walls to keep out these evil poor brown races.

There is nothing wrong with finding, arresting, and imprisoning or deporting violent criminal immigrants. I don't think you would find anyone who'd disagree with that sentiment, but that problem is overblown for white nationalist, racist, political reasons. For the most part, immigrants, undocumented immigrants, south american immigrants, are good hard working people who pay taxes and contribute to american society. To much of the right, they are demons, inhuman, which is made all the more obvious by the way people in this very discussion talk about them.