Originally posted by seer
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The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostIt's a steaming load of crap for one person to declare how others must "come to the table". That you buy this crap is truly disturbing.
The question is - what is the cause? Is it to finally change our society to make ALL people, regardless of color, sex, or sexual orientation, to be treated equally under the law? Or is it to incite people to shove those who disagree with them "out of the country?"
Which would you prefer to be part of?
Last edited by DesertBerean; 07-18-2019, 11:37 PM.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by Bill the Cat View PostAgain, she blatantly implied. I never said she said exactly that. And it is clear that she is race baiting and telling brown and black people how their voice should sound.
Originally posted by Bill the Cat View PostBecause she is clearly a racist.
That being said, there is nothing implicitly racist about a person calling for the other members of their race/sex/gender to stand up and be counted. MLK did it. Millicent Fawcett did it. Gandhi did it. Nelson Mandella did it.
Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post"They would have you, and I mean the proverbial 'they,' believe that what is fraying at the fabric of America, what is killing us as a country, is identity politics," "Let me say this about identity: It matters. I am black with a capital 'B,' I'm woman with a capital 'W.' I'm black and a woman, and unapologetically proud to be both."
So I applaud her words. I think we should ALL applaud those words. I think we should ALL strive to create a society where no one feels a need to have to SAY those words - because pride in who and what we are in endemic to the society.
In my lifetime? I sadly doubt it...The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post“We don’t need any more white faces that don’t want to be a white voice".
Racist?
Then a young red-headed boy moves in, and quickly realizes the situation. Rather than conforming, he begins to call out the behavior. He rallies the red-heads. He gets some of the fence-sitters to speak out. He declares "I'm red-headed and proud of it!"
Some of the bullies and some of the "go along with the crowd" group object. "What makes you think you're better than us!?" Why can't we say "blonde and proud of it?!"
The fact is, both "black and proud" and "white and proud" are racial expressions. They should be as innocuous as "Danish and proud" or "Woman and proud" or "Jewish and proud." They become "racist" when "proud" implies "better than you." And we cannot ignore the history. There is no extensive history of black people systemically enslaving and/or demeaning white people in this country. There is little history of law that assign a value to a white person that is a fraction of the value assigned to a black person.
So are "white and proud" and "black and proud" racist statements? Maybe. Given the history - and the continuing disparity between people of different colors - "white and proud" is a problem (for now) and should be eschewed. All it does is pour oil on the fire. "Black and proud" is unfortunate, but understandable (IMO). I hope it never means more than "I deserve to be treated equally" (which is how I think it is usually used). And I hope it can someday disappear as a needed statement.Last edited by carpedm9587; 07-18-2019, 11:40 AM.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by seer View PostI will keep an eye out...
Originally posted by Bill the Cat View PostShe blatantly implied that blacks are not really black unless they agree with her and her ideas of blackness.
"I don't want to bring a chair to an old table. This is the time to shake the table. This is the time to redefine that table. Because if you're going to come to this table, and if all of you who have aspirations of running for office. For every lived experience and identity you represent. If you are not prepared to come to that table and represent that voice, don’t come, because we don't need any more brown faces that don't want to be a brown voice. We don’t need black faces that don't want to be a black voice. We don't need Muslims that don’t want to be a Muslim voice. We don’t need queers that don't want to be a queer voice. And if you’re worried about being marginalized and stereotyped, please don't even show up because we need you to represent that voice."
She's telling people in politics to champion those identities/experiences they represent. That's not saying "you're not really black if you don't agree with my ideas of black," it's saying, "if you're running for office and you're black/brown/Muslim/gay/etc., then you ought to speak up for your people. We don't need people in politics who are afraid to do that."
Now, I do think there are a number of problems with the speech. First of all, elected officials should ideally not be the voice of just those ethnic/religious demographics they personally identify with. They should represent as best they can all of their constituents, regardless of (and perhaps, despite) personal identity. I get the feeling that she wouldn't be comfortable with someone making a similar speech with "white," and "Christian" in the list of identities/experiences. Second of all, who specifically does she have in mind in politics who isn't voicing the plight of those they identify with? I doubt anyone's doing that. This seems like a razzmatazz type speech that gets a lot of cheers but is mostly empty and meaningless.
On the whole issue of Trump's words on leaving the country...terribly worded, and ignorant as usual. Out and out racist though? I don't know. Insensitive, totally. The fact that he then went on and added, "Then come back and show us how...its done" doesn't strike me as out and out racist so much as a "if you think fixing a nation is so easy why don't you do it, and get back to me." I can see implicit racism in his comments though. Perhaps even unintentional. His language that they "originally came from countries whose governments are a complete and total catastrophe, the worst, most corrupt and inept anywhere in the world (if they even have a functioning government at all)" is a reference to their ethnic background more so than their actual nation of origin (with the exception of Ilhan Omar who came over at the age of 10). Was that written in ignorance to their national origin? I don't know. At the very least what he wrote strikes me as xenophobic. It's not something a president should ever say, but I honestly don't think he's together enough to really grasp how ignorant the things he says are. Like, I honestly don't think that he thinks he's a racist, but he does seem to see "those people" as something different and lesser than "his people," whatever "those" and "his" people are.Last edited by Adrift; 07-18-2019, 11:46 AM.
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostAnd if the American population said "that's what we want" and amended the constitution accordingly, nothing could be "more American." Like I said - I doubt it will happen. I certainly would not welcome it. I would be vocal about resisting it myself. I doubt I would continue to live here if it actually did happen. But I would respect the right of the people of this country, from whom the power of government is derived, to make their choice for themselves.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostAnd you clearly are layering meaning on a set of sentences that do not have to be interpreted in the manner you are interpreting them. It leaves me wondering why you have a need to do this.
Maybe - but not "clearly." The great challenge of racism is that it commonly begets more of itself. Black children are disenfranchised and lack equal access to secondary education - so "affirmative action" is created to fix the problem, only all it does is perpetuate the problem because affirmative action still uses race as its basis.
That being said, there is nothing implicitly racist about a person calling for the other members of their race/sex/gender to stand up and be counted. MLK did it. Millicent Fawcett did it. Gandhi did it. Nelson Mandella did it.
And to this I say "yes!" I hope the day comes when people feel affirmed enough in their own society that they do not need to stand and say these words. But until that time comes, the voices who say "there is nothing wrong with being a woman" and "there is nothing wrong with being black" and "there is nothing wrong with being gay" are speaking for those who are constantly spoken about, and treated, as if there is something wrong with who and what they are.
So I applaud her words. I think we should ALL applaud those words. I think we should ALL strive to create a society where no one feels a need to have to SAY those words - because pride in who and what we are in endemic to the society.
In my lifetime? I sadly doubt it...That's what
- She
Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
- Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)
I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
- Stephen R. Donaldson
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Originally posted by seer View PostCarp, so in your view nothing could be considered un-american as long as the majority voted it in, or voted it out.
Originally posted by seer View PostThe First Amendment? Freedom of the press, religion? The right of trial? If that is the case Carp, there is no definition of Americanism, anything could be labeled "American." Nothing un-American.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
Comment
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Originally posted by Bill the Cat View PostYeah, no I am not. Identity politics is what this is about. She admits it straight away.
Originally posted by Bill the Cat View PostThat's not what she was saying. In fact, it's the exact opposite. Blacks, Browns, Muslims, and Queers that don't "stand up and be counted" as their labeled identity are not wanted according to her. Identity politics of this stripe are deeply and inherently racist.
Originally posted by Bill the Cat View PostIdentity politics are not ok. MLK is turning over in his grave...The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostIn my view - Lincoln said it best. The heart of the American experiment is "government of the people, by the people, for the people."
But the only unamerican thing I can think of is denying others the right to have and voice their opinion on how we should be structured and how we should function.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
Identity politics are not ok. MLK is turning over in his grave...
I'm always still in trouble again
"You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
"Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
"Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
The right has done a good job of turning "identity politics" into a mob-chant. I don't have an issue with "identity politics" because I recognize that all politics are about identity - yours included.
And I'm sure it is just some odd coincidence that the first category is anti-Jewish/Israeli chants and has nothing to do with the fact that the left has now been welcoming anti-semites into their midsts, embracing them with open arms and defending what they say no matter how vile.
Oh, and they're hardly the only site. There is also the Abundant Activism Chant Sheet and even chant generators as well.
I'm always still in trouble again
"You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
"Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
"Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostAs I have noted, BTC - ALL politics are about identity.
And she makes no bones about her identity and that it informs her politics.
Your statement, however, was that anyone who disagreed with her was "not black" or "not brown" in her view. That is meaning you have, AFAICT, added to her statement. Not only that, but the statement is cherry-picked from a wider context (which I had not thought to check). Adrift's wider context shows this to be true.
What she actually SAID was "we have no more need of..." In other words, those who will not exercise their voices are not needed. The great silent, unengaged, mass is not helping. And, as Adrift's wider context shows, she was specifically speaking to politicians.
The right has done a good job of turning "identity politics" into a mob-chant.
I don't have an issue with "identity politics" because I recognize that all politics are about identity - yours included.That's what
- She
Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
- Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)
I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
- Stephen R. Donaldson
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostA group of blond-haired kids in a middle school are known to be the bullies.
“We don’t need any more white faces that don’t want to be a white voice".
Racist?The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by Tassman View PostNOTHING can justify the inhumane treatment these people are receiving at the border at the hands of the US government. Fix that first, like any civilized country should, and deal constructively with the rest later.
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