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Thread: Greek readings of the bible,

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    tWebber
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    Greek readings of the bible,

    Let's present and discuss our Greek readings. I would like to start with the Book of Revelation. Here's Chapter 1 of a reading I made yesterday.

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    tWebber Rushing Jaws's Avatar
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    What aspect or aspects of Rev do you want to discuss ?

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    tWebber
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    Let's dissect the very first verse:

    Ἀποκάλυψις Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ, ἣν ἔδωκεν αὐτῷ ὁ Θεός, δεῖξαι τοῖς δούλοις αὐτοῦ ἃ δεῖ γενέσθαι ἐν τάχει, καὶ ἐσήμανεν ἀποστείλας διὰ τοῦ ἀγγέλου αὐτοῦ, τῷ δούλῳ αὐτοῦ Ἰωάνῃ,

    (1) Here God (ὁ Θεός) is distinguished from Jesus . Now if the author was a Trinitarian and believed Jesus to also be ὁ Θεός , he would (at the very least) have been compelled to have written something as follows: Ἀποκάλυψις Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ, ἣν ἔδωκεν αὐτῷ ὁ πατήρ, δεῖξαι.... " The revelation of Jesus Christ, which the Father gave him to show.."

    (2) The text says that the Revelation was "given" (ἔδωκεν) to Jesus by God. This really is proof that the Jesus of apostle John was not omniscient (even after ascending into Heaven) and therefore not the Almighty God.

    The first verse suggests that for apostle John only the Father is God, and only God (i.e. the Father) is Omniscient.

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    tWebber tabibito's Avatar
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    The revelation of Jesus Christ that God gave him ... to show his servants.

    You can't even show that something was revealed to Christ in this verse. It may well be a decision by God to assign the task of revealing through Christ to his servants, which is to say it might be a joint decision by the Trinity to leave the task of revelation to a specific member of the Trinity.

    So - the ambiguous verse is interpreted so as to support a precept. That interpretation forces the verse into contradiction of the passages that declare Christ to be God. If you are to produce an argument to support the Unitarianism, it will be necessary first to undermine or reinterpret the explicit statements of Christ's deity.
    1 Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω

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    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by tabibito View Post
    The revelation of Jesus Christ that God gave him ... to show his servants.

    You can't even show that something was revealed to Christ in this verse. It may well be a decision by God to assign the task of revealing through Christ to his servants, which is to say it might be a joint decision by the Trinity to leave the task of revelation to a specific member of the Trinity.

    So - the ambiguous verse is interpreted so as to support a precept. That interpretation forces the verse into contradiction of the passages that declare Christ to be God. If you are to produce an argument to support the Unitarianism, it will be necessary first to undermine or reinterpret the explicit statements of Christ's deity.
    Ἀποκάλυψις means "a Revelation"

    ἔδωκεν means "He (God) gave"

    δεῖξαι means "to show"

    When someone is given a Revelation it means that they have received information which they formerly did not possess. Look at Gal 1:12

    οὐδὲ γὰρ ἐγὼ παρὰ ἀνθρώπου παρέλαβον αὐτό οὔτε ἐδιδάχθην, ἀλλὰ δι ἀποκαλύψεως Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ.
    Eph. 3:3

    ὅτι κατὰ ἀποκάλυψιν ἐγνωρίσθη μοι τὸ μυστήριον, καθὼς προέγραψα ἐν ὀλίγῳ,
    etc..

    Also, and perhaps more importantly, δίδωμι is a verb used to connote something which one receives , that is, something which one gets from someone which they do not already have, ....else they couldn't possibly be given it:



    ὅταν δὲ παραδῶσιν ὑμᾶς, μὴ μεριμνήσητε πῶς ἢ τί λαλήσητε δοθήσεται γὰρ ὑμῖν ἐν ἐκείνῃ τῇ ὥρᾳ τί λαλήσητε
    Matthew 10:19

    ὁ δὲ ἀποκριθεὶς εἶπεν ὅτι Ὑμῖν δέδοται γνῶναι τὰ μυστήρια τῆς βασιλείας τῶν οὐρανῶν, ἐκείνοις δὲ οὐ δέδοται.
    Matthew 13:11


    ὥσπερ γὰρ ὁ Πατὴρ ἔχει ζωὴν ἐν ἑαυτῷ, οὕτως καὶ τῷ Υἱῷ ἔδωκεν ζωὴν ἔχειν ἐν ἑαυτῷ.
    John 5:26

    εἰδὼς ὅτι πάντα ἔδωκεν αὐτῷ ὁ Πατὴρ εἰς τὰς χεῖρας, καὶ ὅτι ἀπὸ Θεοῦ ἐξῆλθεν καὶ πρὸς τὸν Θεὸν ὑπάγει,
    John 13:3


    ἀλλ' ἵνα γνῷ ὁ κόσμος ὅτι ἀγαπῶ τὸν πατέρα, καὶ καθὼς ἐντολὴν ἔδωκέν μοι ὁ πατὴρ οὕτως ποιῶ. Ἐγείρεσθε, ἄγωμεν ἐντεῦθεν.
    John 14:31

    καὶ ἡμεῖς ἐσμεν μάρτυρες τῶν ῥημάτων τούτων, καὶ τὸ Πνεῦμα τὸ Ἅγιον ὃ ἔδωκεν ὁ Θεὸς τοῖς πειθαρχοῦσιν αὐτῷ.
    Acts 5:32

    εἰ οὖν τὴν ἴσην δωρεὰν ἔδωκεν αὐτοῖς ὁ Θεὸς ὡς καὶ ἡμῖν, πιστεύσασιν ἐπὶ τὸν Κύριον Ἰησοῦν Χριστόν, ἐγὼ τίς ἤμην δυνατὸς κωλῦσαι τὸν Θεόν;
    Acts 11:17


    καθάπερ γέγραπται Ἔδωκεν αὐτοῖς ὁ Θεὸς πνεῦμα κατανύξεως, ὀφθαλμοὺς τοῦ μὴ βλέπειν καὶ ὦτα τοῦ μὴ ἀκούειν, ἕως τῆς σήμερον ἡμέρας.
    Romans 11:8


    οὐ γὰρ ἔδωκεν ἡμῖν ὁ Θεὸς πνεῦμα δειλίας, ἀλλὰ δυνάμεως καὶ ἀγάπης καὶ σωφρονισμοῦ.
    2 Tim. 1:7


    καὶ αὕτη ἐστὶν ἡ μαρτυρία, ὅτι ζωὴν αἰώνιον ἔδωκεν ὁ Θεὸς ἡμῖν, καὶ αὕτη ἡ ζωὴ ἐν τῷ Υἱῷ αὐτοῦ ἐστιν.
    1 John 5:11

    καὶ τὸ θηρίον ὃ εἶδον ἦν ὅμοιον παρδάλει, καὶ οἱ πόδες αὐτοῦ ὡς ἄρκου, καὶ τὸ στόμα αὐτοῦ ὡς στόμα λέοντος. καὶ ἔδωκεν αὐτῷ ὁ δράκων τὴν δύναμιν αὐτοῦ καὶ τὸν θρόνον αὐτοῦ καὶ ἐξουσίαν μεγάλην.
    Rev. 13:2


    καὶ προσεκύνησαν τῷ δράκοντι ὅτι ἔδωκεν τὴν ἐξουσίαν τῷ θηρίῳ, καὶ προσεκύνησαν τῷ θηρίῳ λέγοντες Τίς ὅμοιος τῷ θηρίῳ, καὶ τίς δύναται πολεμῆσαι μετ αὐτοῦ;
    Rev. 13:4

    καὶ ἓν ἐκ τῶν τεσσάρων ζῴων ἔδωκεν τοῖς ἑπτὰ ἀγγέλοις ἑπτὰ φιάλας χρυσᾶς γεμούσας τοῦ θυμοῦ τοῦ Θεοῦ τοῦ ζῶντος εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας τῶν αἰώνων.
    Rev. 15:7

    etc..
    Last edited by Unitarian101; 07-02-2019 at 01:20 PM.

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    tWebber tabibito's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Unitarian101 View Post
    Ἀποκάλυψις means "a Revelation"

    ἔδωκεν means "He (God) gave"

    δεῖξαι means "to show"

    When someone is given a Revelation it means that they have received information which they formerly did not possess. Look at Gal 1:12
    It is given me to show someone something ... Something is given me to show to someone. The thing given in each case is different.

    αποκαλυψις ιησου χριστου - the revelation of Jesus Christ (the thing given)
    ην - that
    εδωκεν αυτω - he gave to him
    ο θεος - God (the one giving)
    δειξαι - to show

    Jesus is not being given a revelation; God gave it him "to show," or, Jesus was given (the authority) to show.
    The best you can claim (and an outside chance at that) is that the statement is ambiguous.

    Also, and perhaps more importantly, δίδωμι is a verb used to connote something which one receives , that is, something which one gets from someone which they do not already have, ....else they couldn't possibly be given it:
    That is λαμβανω that you defined there. διδωμι is "grant, bestow, give, donate"
    Last edited by tabibito; 07-02-2019 at 09:29 PM.
    1 Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω

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    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by tabibito View Post
    It is given me to show someone something ... Something is given me to show to someone. The thing given in each case is different.

    αποκαλυψις ιησου χριστου - the revelation of Jesus Christ (the thing given)
    ην - that
    εδωκεν αυτω - he gave to him
    ο θεος - God (the one giving)
    δειξαι - to show

    Jesus is not being given a revelation; God gave it him "to show," or, Jesus was given (the authority) to show.
    The best you can claim (and an outside chance at that) is that the statement is ambiguous.


    That is a straight-out contradiction of what the apostle wrote: ἣν ἔδωκεν αὐτῷ ὁ Θεός, "which [Revelation] God gave to him ."

    ----

    Ἀποκάλυψις Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ, (A Revelation of Jesus Christ,),

    ἣν ἔδωκεν αὐτῷ ὁ Θεός, (which God gave unto him,)

    δεῖξαι τοῖς δούλοις αὐτοῦ ἃ δεῖ γενέσθαι ἐν τάχει, (to show to his servants the things which are to take place shortly),

    The text does not say "which God authorized him to show his servants the things which are to take place shortly." The apostle would have used the verb ἀνέδειξεν or some equivalent had he intended this.



    That is λαμβανω that you defined there. διδωμι is "grant, bestow, give, donate"
    I did not "define" it as such. I said it connoted a receiving (from the perspective of the one who is being given it, ofcourse). So look at the following:

    καὶ ἓν ἐκ τῶν τεσσάρων ζῴων ἔδωκεν τοῖς ἑπτὰ ἀγγέλοις ἑπτὰ φιάλας χρυσᾶς γεμούσας τοῦ θυμοῦ τοῦ Θεοῦ τοῦ ζῶντος εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας τῶν αἰώνων.

    Then one of the four living creatures gave to the seven angels seven golden bowls filled with the wrath of God, who lives for ever and ever.
    One of the Living Creatures gave to the seven angels...., which is the same as saying that the seven angels received from one of the Living Creatures.... That's all I said.

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    tWebber
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    I notice that most Trinitarian commentaries either skip this clause or else say something as follows:

    Benson Commentary:


    Which God gave unto him According to his holy, glorified humanity, as the great Prophet of the church. God gave the revelation to Jesus Christ, Jesus Christ made it known to his servants.
    What exactly does that mean ? He was already in heaven . Even there he is "given" revelation, albeit "according to his glorified humanity ?"

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    tWebber tabibito's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Unitarian101 View Post
    That is a straight-out contradiction of what the apostle wrote: ἣν ἔδωκεν αὐτῷ ὁ Θεός, "which [Revelation] God gave to him ."

    ----

    Ἀποκάλυψις Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ, (A Revelation of Jesus Christ,),

    ἣν ἔδωκεν αὐτῷ ὁ Θεός, (which God gave unto him,)

    δεῖξαι τοῖς δούλοις αὐτοῦ ἃ δεῖ γενέσθαι ἐν τάχει, (to show to his servants the things which are to take place shortly),
    OK - Certain details of your argument I reject, but the substance checks out well enough. Certainly my initial assessment is highly suspect at best.

    (1) Here God (ὁ Θεός) is distinguished from Jesus . Now if the author was a Trinitarian and believed Jesus to also be ὁ Θεός , he would (at the very least) have been compelled to have written something as follows: Ἀποκάλυψις Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ, ἣν ἔδωκεν αὐτῷ ὁ πατήρ, δεῖξαι.... " The revelation of Jesus Christ, which the Father gave him to show.."
    John had a habit of writing "God" when he was referring to the Father. He cites Jesus, "No man has seen the Father at any time," but writes in his own words "no man has seen God at any time." This is the same John who declared that Logos was God, also declaring Logos to have been with God. Moreover, John cannot have been ignorant of the Old Testament records showing people to have seen God, therefore, either John was declaring the Old Testament records wrong, OR, he had some reason for referring to the Father as God while yet acknowledging Logos as God.

    (2) The text says that the Revelation was "given" (ἔδωκεν) to Jesus by God. This really is proof that the Jesus of apostle John was not omniscient (even after ascending into Heaven) and therefore not the Almighty God.
    Nothing there demonstrates that Jesus is not God. Your interpretation might - just possibly - have put a spanner in the works when it comes to co-equality (which in AD300 was something of a novel concept anyway.) But the author is John, and he often writes "God" when he is referring to the "Father." Had he written "Father" it would have done somewhat more damage to the co-equality precept. As it stands, it might be that God (trinity) reveals something to Jesus, the near future.

    So then - let's see how you deal with Revelation 1:7-8
    1 Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω

  10. #10
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by tabibito View Post
    OK - Certain details of your argument I reject, but the substance checks out well enough. Certainly my initial assessment is highly suspect at best.

    John had a habit of writing "God" when he was referring to the Father. He cites Jesus, "No man has seen the Father at any time," but writes in his own words "no man has seen God at any time." This is the same John who declared that Logos was God, also declaring Logos to have been with God. Moreover, John cannot have been ignorant of the Old Testament records showing people to have seen God, therefore, either John was declaring the Old Testament records wrong, OR, he had some reason for referring to the Father as God while yet acknowledging Logos as God.

    Nothing there demonstrates that Jesus is not God. Your interpretation might - just possibly - have put a spanner in the works when it comes to co-equality (which in AD300 was something of a novel concept anyway.) But the author is John, and he often writes "God" when he is referring to the "Father." Had he written "Father" it would have done somewhat more damage to the co-equality precept. As it stands, it might be that God (trinity) reveals something to Jesus, the near future.
    (1) The point is that even in Heaven Jesus is given revelation from God, which means that even there he is not omniscient, which IMHO is pretty strong evidence that the apostle did not consider him to have the attributes of the Father (like Omniscient), at any time.

    (2) If the apostle believed Jesus to also be God , he could not honestly have written the way he did in verse one. We must exegesis the scriptures, not eisegesis them. A sure way of doing the former is to analyze how the bible conducts itself in similar situations. In this regard, you will see that every time scripture writes that God gave or did something to/for X, that X is not also God. Here are some examples from the Revelation itself:

    καὶ ἐξαλείψει ὁ Θεὸς πᾶν δάκρυον ἐκ τῶν ὀφθαλμῶν αὐτῶν.

    Rev. 7:17

    λέγοντες Εὐχαριστοῦμέν σοι, Κύριε ὁ Θεός ὁ Παντοκράτωρ, ὁ ὢν καὶ ὁ ἦν, ὅτι εἴληφας τὴν δύναμίν σου τὴν μεγάλην καὶ ἐβασίλευσας

    Rev. 11:17

    καὶ ᾄδουσιν τὴν ᾠδὴν Μωϋσέως τοῦ δούλου τοῦ Θεοῦ καὶ τὴν ᾠδὴν τοῦ Ἀρνίου, λέγοντες Μεγάλα καὶ θαυμαστὰ τὰ ἔργα σου, Κύριε ὁ Θεός ὁ Παντοκράτωρ δίκαιαι καὶ ἀληθιναὶ αἱ ὁδοί σου, ὁ Βασιλεὺς τῶν ἐθνῶν.

    Rev. 15:3

    etc.., etc..


    So then - let's see how you deal with Revelation 1:7-8
    All right. I will do so next post, when I have more time.

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