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Cogito ergo sum

Here in the Philosophy forum we will talk about all the "why" questions. We'll have conversations about the way in which philosophy and theology and religion interact with each other. Metaphysics, ontology, origins, truth? They're all fair game so jump right in and have some fun! But remember...play nice!

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Are Thoughts Causal?

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  • Are Thoughts Causal?

    Many materialists do not believe that thoughts have a causal role in any sense, they are in effect epiphenomenal. To quote T.H. Huxley:

    "Consciousness would appear to be related to the mechanism of the body simply as a collateral product of its working, and to be as completely without any power of modifying that working as the steam-whistle which accompanies the work of a locomotive engine is without influence upon its machinery..."

    What he refereed to as "conscious automata."

    In other words our thoughts have no real effect on behavior. This seems like a way to counter any form of dualism. But it seems to be that immaterial thoughts do play a causal role in behavior, this I believe is obvious in everyday experience.
    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

  • #2
    Originally posted by seer View Post
    Many materialists do not believe that thoughts have a causal role in any sense, they are in effect epiphenomenal. To quote T.H. Huxley:

    "Consciousness would appear to be related to the mechanism of the body simply as a collateral product of its working, and to be as completely without any power of modifying that working as the steam-whistle which accompanies the work of a locomotive engine is without influence upon its machinery..."

    What he refereed to as "conscious automata."

    In other words our thoughts have no real effect on behavior. This seems like a way to counter any form of dualism. But it seems to be that immaterial thoughts do play a causal role in behavior, this I believe is obvious in everyday experience.
    First, T.H. Huxley is a little old and presenting a philosophical opinion. T.H. Huxley does not necessarily represent the current view of thoughts, mind nor whether dualism is true (which dualism), nor causal role.

    I do not believe the causal role of our thoughts has been determined, nor is there any objective verifiable evidence that it is determined to be separate from the function of the mind and brain.
    Last edited by shunyadragon; 07-01-2019, 09:28 AM.
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
      I do not believe the causal role of our thoughts has been determined.
      Decide you are going to do something in an hour and then do it. Your thought would be the cause of your action.

      I am going to stop at the pharmacy on the way home from work today. When I do so, it will be because of my present thinking and deciding to do so. Pretty easy to determine.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Sparko View Post
        Decide you are going to do something in an hour and then do it. Your thought would be the cause of your action.

        I am going to stop at the pharmacy on the way home from work today. When I do so, it will be because of my present thinking and deciding to do so. Pretty easy to determine.
        They would say that the brain made that decision (sub-consciously) before your conscious mind was aware. And you awareness of that was just an after thought (if you will) with no real casual effect.
        Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by seer View Post
          They would say that the brain made that decision (sub-consciously) before your conscious mind was aware. And you awareness of that was just an after thought (if you will) with no real casual effect.
          Except I can make conscious detailed plans, considering the various options and carry them out. I don't think the subconscious is capable of detailed and deliberate planning.

          Also even if my subconscious brain came up with the thought it is still a thought that caused the action even if I wasn't consciously aware of it at the time. It wasn't the action that caused the thought.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Sparko View Post
            Except I can make conscious detailed plans, considering the various options and carry them out. I don't think the subconscious is capable of detailed and deliberate planning.

            Also even if my subconscious brain came up with the thought it is still a thought that caused the action even if I wasn't consciously aware of it at the time. It wasn't the action that caused the thought.
            They would say that the subconscious thing was just a physical interaction not really a thought as we think of it.
            Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by seer View Post
              They would say that the subconscious thing was just a physical interaction not really a thought as we think of it.
              They would have to show how a physical interaction can produce detailed plans.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                They would have to show how a physical interaction can produce detailed plans.
                Magic?
                Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by seer View Post
                  Magic?
                  or how physical processes produces deep philosophical theses like "Thoughts are like the whistle on a steam engine" - maybe they have to eat the right combination of foods to produce the correct amount of gas to power the brain and cause the thoughts.

                  Of course Huxley lived at a time when they had no clue how the body or the brain worked so there's that.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                    Decide you are going to do something in an hour and then do it. Your thought would be the cause of your action.

                    I am going to stop at the pharmacy on the way home from work today. When I do so, it will be because of my present thinking and deciding to do so. Pretty easy to determine.
                    There may be a chain of of cause and effect outcomes that 'may' cause you to think about going to the pharmacy, and therefore go to the pharmacy. I do not believe you can reasonable isolate thinking as as separate causal mechanism in and of itself. Thoughts are an intimate part of the mind, and by the evidence at present the mind is a product of the brain.
                    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                    go with the flow the river knows . . .

                    Frank

                    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by seer View Post
                      They would say that the brain made that decision (sub-consciously) before your conscious mind was aware. And you awareness of that was just an after thought (if you will) with no real casual effect.
                      Not necessarily, the thinking of going to the pharmacy, and therefore go, may be a part of many chains of cause and effect outcomes in ones life, both conscious, sub-conscious, and influences outside one's self influences.
                      Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                      Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                      But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                      go with the flow the river knows . . .

                      Frank

                      I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                        There may be a chain of of cause and effect outcomes that 'may' cause you to think about going to the pharmacy, and therefore go to the pharmacy. I do not believe you can reasonable isolate thinking as as separate causal mechanism in and of itself. Thoughts are an intimate part of the mind, and by the evidence at present the mind is a product of the brain.
                        Did you eat some bad grapes that caused you to think that?

                        Even if something initiated the idea (I got a notice on my phone that my prescriptions were ready) - I still had to think about it, decide if I was going to stop in on the way home, or do it later, maybe in the morning, etc. There is more to thinking and deciding than reacting to stimuli. And since I thought of all of that and made the decision before I actually did the behavior (going to the pharmacy) that disproves the idea that the thought comes after the behavior as Seer stated in the OP>

                        Thought: I need to go to pharmacy.
                        Behavior: actually go to pharmacy.

                        Thought came first.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                          Did you eat some bad grapes that caused you to think that?

                          Even if something initiated the idea (I got a notice on my phone that my prescriptions were ready) - I still had to think about it, decide if I was going to stop in on the way home, or do it later, maybe in the morning, etc. There is more to thinking and deciding than reacting to stimuli. And since I thought of all of that and made the decision before I actually did the behavior (going to the pharmacy) that disproves the idea that the thought comes after the behavior as Seer stated in the OP>

                          Thought: I need to go to pharmacy.
                          Behavior: actually go to pharmacy.

                          Thought came first.
                          . . . but the chain of cause and effect events other that your lead you to think about going to the pharmacy. Most of these cause and effect events are outside your mind
                          Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                          Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                          But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                          go with the flow the river knows . . .

                          Frank

                          I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                            by the evidence at present the mind is a product of the brain.
                            This is absolutely not true at all. The reason there is such a strong belief in the theory that the mind is a product of the brain is not that the evidence points that way, but because the the prevailing assumption among the scientists studying this issue is that the mind is a product of the brain. But the evidence (if any) that exists for that assumption is not very convincing at all.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                              . . . but the chain of cause and effect events other that your lead you to think about going to the pharmacy. Most of these cause and effect events are outside your mind
                              OK even if the "outside" events caused me to want to go to the pharmacy, I still have to think about going or not going, make the decision, plan the route I want to take, the time I want to go, and so on.

                              By the way, I didn't go to the pharmacy yesterday after all. I remembered I am waiting on a second prescription that is due to be filled today, so I decided to wait and pick up both at the same time today, IF it gets filled today on schedule.

                              Comment

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