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Cogito ergo sum

Here in the Philosophy forum we will talk about all the "why" questions. We'll have conversations about the way in which philosophy and theology and religion interact with each other. Metaphysics, ontology, origins, truth? They're all fair game so jump right in and have some fun! But remember...play nice!

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Are Thoughts Causal?

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  • Originally posted by Chrawnus View Post
    Science doesn't have an explanation for consciousness period, regardless of whether we're talking about humans or higher mammals.
    Agreed.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Anomaly View Post
      Yes, they have souls of a lesser sort than humans. The word typically used to make the distinction between animal and human soul is intellect, arguably the highest form of soul with powers of abstraction the moral sense. The intellect is the sort of soul under consideration here. You're correct that the affiliation feature is logical conjecture. But logical conjecture can, if it provides sufficient logical connections, advance to levels of empirical testability. I assume you're aware that conjecture is used by empiricists and non-empiricists (religionists) alike in their approach to solving problems?
      Rather, I think that the intellectual distinction between animal and human is called a bigger more complex physical brain, not a bigger more complex soul/mind.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by seer View Post
        Many materialists do not believe that thoughts have a causal role in any sense, they are in effect epiphenomenal. To quote T.H. Huxley:

        "Consciousness would appear to be related to the mechanism of the body simply as a collateral product of its working, and to be as completely without any power of modifying that working as the steam-whistle which accompanies the work of a locomotive engine is without influence upon its machinery..."

        What he refereed to as "conscious automata."

        In other words our thoughts have no real effect on behavior. This seems like a way to counter any form of dualism. But it seems to be that immaterial thoughts do play a causal role in behavior, this I believe is obvious in everyday experience.
        Yes, I agree that thoughts seem to have causal power, and that thoughts as such are immaterial. There are a number of interesting questions that this raises: thoughts operate for reasons, but it seems that reasons are different in some ways from causes. Do reasons just 'piggyback' epiphenomenally on physical causes? If so, then we don't do anything for the 'reasons' we think we do, including typing these comments on this message board! It makes more sense of everything we know to assume that reasons do act causally, and that they act as reasons and not as physical causes in the brain/nervous system, even if those physical causes are necessary to realize those reasons.

        One possible solution is some sort of 'neutral monism' or 'dual aspect' theory. This would solve the 'interaction problem,' and other problems inherent in substance dualisms, although it may lead to panpsychism or proto-panpsychism. Chalmers and others have proposed a 'dual-aspect information theory,' in which everything decomposes ultimately into information bits which present in dual-aspect form, as either intrinsic or extrinsic, ie, information 'from the inside,' or 'from the outside.'

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        • Originally posted by Chrawnus View Post
          Science doesn't have an explanation for consciousness period, regardless of whether we're talking about humans or higher mammals.

          Arguing from ignorance is a fallacy and not coherent for arguing against a scientific explanation for consciousness which humans share in common with all higher animals.
          Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
          Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
          But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

          go with the flow the river knows . . .

          Frank

          I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Anomaly View Post
            Yes, they have souls of a lesser sort than humans. The word typically used to make the distinction between animal and human soul is intellect, arguably the highest form of soul with powers of abstraction the moral sense. The intellect is the sort of soul under consideration here. You're correct that the affiliation feature is logical conjecture. But logical conjecture can, if it provides sufficient logical connections, advance to levels of empirical testability. I assume you're aware that conjecture is used by empiricists and non-empiricists (religionists) alike in their approach to solving problems?
            First, primates and some higher mammals hive a primitive forms of intellect, and capable of problem solving, and memorizing complex behavior. Regardless there is absolutely no evidence for consciousness and intellect beyond the physical activity of the brain.
            Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
            Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
            But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

            go with the flow the river knows . . .

            Frank

            I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
              First, primates and some higher mammals hive a primitive forms of intellect, and capable of problem solving, and memorizing complex behavior. Regardless there is absolutely no evidence for consciousness and intellect beyond the physical activity of the brain.
              I thought you were banned from this thread. Please observe the rules.

              Your 'observation', which you've made ad nauseam, is as always, entirely beside the point and has absolutely nothing to do with the 'hard problem' which you have never exhibited the slightest shred of evidence for having understood any aspect of, or any willingness or curiosity to try to learn about.. You're clearly out of your depth. Please go back to cutting and pasting science articles. I won't engage with you any more.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Jim B. View Post
                I thought you were banned from this thread. Please observe the rules.

                Your 'observation', which you've made ad nauseam, is as always, entirely beside the point and has absolutely nothing to do with the 'hard problem' which you have never exhibited the slightest shred of evidence for having understood any aspect of, or any willingness or curiosity to try to learn about.. You're clearly out of your depth. Please go back to cutting and pasting science articles. I won't engage with you any more.
                Shunya's point stands regardless. There is no evidence of external causation, i.e. immaterial thoughts, effecting the physical brain (mental states) activity.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by JimL View Post
                  Rather, I think that the intellectual distinction between animal and human is called a bigger more complex physical brain, not a bigger more complex soul/mind.
                  Agree with the physical observations. But the higher powers of abstraction and for processing knowledge in intellectual operation, especially moral knowledge, is unmistakable. These powers may or may not be connected to a humans having a bigger and more complex brain. Even society in general recognizes this difference. You can put down an old, sick dog with a gunshot to the head and not be arrested, though one will be arrested for torturing animals for pleasure. Shoot a human and you're going to jail every time. Society recognizes the difference between animals and humans, and I believe this is specifically because of the higher quantity or quality (or both) of essence [spirit] in humans that produce the moral sense, which the public in general recognizes intuitively.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                    Then all higher mammals have souls. By the evidence a 'the affiliation or fusion of the non-empirical soul with the empirical body.' is conjecture based on religious belief and unnecessary to explain consciousness in the animal kingdom.
                    Shuny there's no sense discussing these things with you. Your mind is completely set on the materialist approach. I've never seen anyone so firmly dogmatic--and there's a LOT of it in Christian theology discussions. There's no room in your worldview to consider opposing views with any level of objectivity. I'd gently suggest you practice a bit of self-introspection on how opening up the mind a bit to consider other views contributes to increase one's knowledge base. Just some thoughts.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Jim B. View Post
                      Yes, I agree that thoughts seem to have causal power, and that thoughts as such are immaterial.
                      I just had a though that my cordless phone has been on my desk for several days. Had a thought to put on my reading glasses so I can see my monitor better. Had thought that the rag I use to clean tools at the end of the day of mudding drywall is pretty well shot, lots of holes.

                      There is no causal power, nor any reason for it that I can see in any of these thoughts.

                      But if I add more thoughts--I wonder if battery is low and phone needs charging (it did)...better put it on charging station....I should find the case and try glasses (messy desk, case under papers)….should throw away the rag and find new one. Now I've added at least one more though to the first of each, I have a set of thoughts that now form a belief. Causal movement in intellectual processing seems to require building thoughts to the level of a belief, and beliefs seem necessary to create reasons.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                        First, primates and some higher mammals hive a primitive forms of intellect, and capable of problem solving, and memorizing complex behavior. Regardless there is absolutely no evidence for consciousness and intellect beyond the physical activity of the brain.
                        Shuny, didn't I ask you to leave this thread? If I didn't I am now, please do not post here.
                        Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Jim B. View Post
                          I thought you were banned from this thread. Please observe the rules.

                          Your 'observation', which you've made ad nauseam, is as always, entirely beside the point and has absolutely nothing to do with the 'hard problem' which you have never exhibited the slightest shred of evidence for having understood any aspect of, or any willingness or curiosity to try to learn about.. You're clearly out of your depth. Please go back to cutting and pasting science articles. I won't engage with you any more.
                          Oh, you have actual evidence for consciousness and intellect beyond the physical activity of the brain do you? Pray tell.
                          “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
                            Oh, you have actual evidence for consciousness and intellect beyond the physical activity of the brain do you? Pray tell.
                            "Actual evidence"

                            There are good reasons to believe that consciousness and intellect goes beyond the physical activity of the brain, but everyone here knows you're an extremely hardline empiricist who will never acknowledge any reasons that are not supported by empirical evidence, even when the issue at hand is not amenable to empirical study.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Chrawnus View Post

                              There are good reasons to believe that consciousness and intellect goes beyond the physical activity of the brain,
                              ...but no actual evidence.
                              “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
                                ...but no actual evidence.
                                Originally posted by Chrawnus View Post
                                . . .everyone here knows you're an extremely hardline empiricist who will never acknowledge any reasons that are not supported by empirical evidence, even when the issue at hand is not amenable to empirical study.
                                QED

                                And no one was surprised.

                                Comment

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