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Thread: Are Thoughts Causal?

  1. #21
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparko View Post
    That wasn't the OP's assertion. It was that thoughts don't CAUSE behaviors, they are just some after effect. Like you move your leg, then afterwards think "I am going to move my leg" and fool yourself into thinking your thought caused the action when in fact the action caused the thought. THAT is what Huxley was claiming according to Seer's OP.
    Well, it wouldn't be the thought "I think i'll move my leg" that comes after the act of moving your leg, it would just be your consciousness of the choice made that would come after the choice was made to move your leg.

    If I can make advanced plans and then later carry them out, then that disproves that thesis.
    Well, not necessarily., The underlying premise of the OP is that a free willed mind, which is distinct from the brain, is the author of the thoughts that cause the behaviors. If the thoughts are the product of the brain itself, then they could be either freely made, if free will is an emergent property of matter/mind, or, if free will is not an emergent property, the thoughts could be determined. That you would be capable of making advanced plans would fit into either scenario.
    Last edited by JimL; 07-03-2019 at 07:47 AM.

  2. #22
    Troll Magnet Sparko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JimL View Post
    Well, it wouldn't be the thought that comes after the act of moving your leg, it would just be your consciousness of the thought that would come after the moving of your leg.
    Don't argue with me, argue with Huxley.

  3. #23
    tWebber shunyadragon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chrawnus View Post
    The only thing the evidence shows is that there is relation of dependence (of some sort) between the mind and the brain. Your supposed evidence that the mind is a product of the brain is just as absent as the evidence for any other theory.
    That is all it shows, and any other argument is an 'argument from ignorance.' There is absolutely no objective verifiable evidence of any other relationship, nor and independent relationship..
    Last edited by shunyadragon; 07-03-2019 at 07:49 AM.
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

  4. #24
    tWebber shunyadragon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparko View Post
    Don't argue with me, argue with Huxley.
    I sure will argue with Huxley, and any one else who cites antiquated sources, he has been long dead, and presents and asserts only a philosophical view.
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

  5. #25
    Troll Magnet Sparko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shunyadragon View Post
    I sure will argue with Huxley, and any one else who cites antiquated sources, he has been long dead, and presents and asserts only a philosophical view.
    That's pretty much what I said. He had no understanding of how the brain even worked.

  6. #26
    tWebber Chrawnus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shunyadragon View Post
    That is all it shows, and any other argument is an 'argument from ignorance.' There is absolutely no objective verifiable evidence of any other relationship, nor and independent relationship..
    Neither is there any objective verifiable evidence for the theory that the mind is a product of the brain.

  7. #27
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chrawnus View Post
    Neither is there any objective verifiable evidence for the theory that the mind is a product of the brain.
    Actually, yes there is.

  8. Amen shunyadragon amen'd this post.
  9. #28
    tWebber Chrawnus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JimL View Post
    Actually, yes there is.
    You're actually supposed to provide some of that supposed evidence after making such an assertion. So we can have a look at it and seeing if it actually points to the conclusion that you claim.

  10. #29
    Troll Magnet Sparko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chrawnus View Post
    You're actually supposed to provide some of that supposed evidence after making such an assertion. So we can have a look at it and seeing if it actually points to the conclusion that you claim.
    JimL providing a source?

  11. Amen Chrawnus, MaxVel amen'd this post.
  12. #30
    tWebber shunyadragon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparko View Post
    That's pretty much what I said. He had no understanding of how the brain even worked.
    There is no argument either way using an old philosophical view, and it is best to dialogue with more relevant contemporary sources including the science of neurology.

    Also a philosophical view is just that, and the only argument is one from authority, or against an authority one opposes.
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

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