Trump’s North Korea Trip

[Sparko]

That works both ways round:

Trump is as much a narcissist as Kim, so I think Kim knows how to handle him. Stroke his ego.

Could be. But it seems Trump is the one getting his way and not the other way around.

[oxmixmudd]

I'm not discussing Trump with you, Jim. Thanks.

The thread is about Trump.


"Trump's North Korea Trip".




Jim

[One Bad Pig]

The thread is about Trump.


"Trump's North Korea Trip".




Jim

You aren't the only participant.

[oxmixmudd]

Er, Jim, you really want N. Korea to have a major nuclear accident before letting them come to the negotiating table? Glasnost came into being in large part because of Chernobyl.

We've isolated the hell out of N. Korea for over fifty years - Plan A ain't working.

If we want to affect their internal policies, we're gonna have to talk to them.

Interesting. I think the original question was: "Just wondering whether anyone is bothered by Trump’s chuminess on display."

And KG's point was: "This is the kind of moral relativism apologists normally condemn in atheists, especially the consistent ones. Leading citizens in mass into concentration camps, killing Christians, and publicly parading political prisoners in front of firing squads"


So you're OK with saying 'let's please just be friends' without pushing back on any of that?

Do we make friends with the neighborhood bully and just keep our trap shut when he's beating up on the kid down the street so we don't make him 'defriend' us? Is that what supporting Trump means signing on to?


Jim

[oxmixmudd]

You aren't the only participant.

God bless you too, OBP.

Jim

[One Bad Pig]

God bless you too, OBP.

Jim

Personally, I think that's preferable to me getting into a discussion with you, because when I express my understanding it inevitably gets perceived as an attack. Sorry.

[Cow Poke]

Interesting. I think the original question was: "Just wondering whether anyone is bothered by Trump’s chuminess on display."

And KG's point was: "This is the kind of moral relativism apologists normally condemn in atheists, especially the consistent ones. Leading citizens in mass into concentration camps, killing Christians, and publicly parading political prisoners in front of firing squads"


So you're OK with saying 'let's please just be friends' without pushing back on any of that?

Do we make friends with the neighborhood bully and just keep our trap shut when he's beating up on the kid down the street so we don't make him 'defriend' us? Is that what supporting Trump means signing on to?


Jim

I'm really surprised your analogies are so weak. The "neighborhood bully" doesn't have 'God-knows-how-many' nuclear weapons at his disposal, and hasn't been dealt with for decades by previous administrations with no positive results.

[Sparko]

Interesting. I think the original question was: "Just wondering whether anyone is bothered by Trump’s chuminess on display."

And KG's point was: "This is the kind of moral relativism apologists normally condemn in atheists, especially the consistent ones. Leading citizens in mass into concentration camps, killing Christians, and publicly parading political prisoners in front of firing squads"


So you're OK with saying 'let's please just be friends' without pushing back on any of that?

Do we make friends with the neighborhood bully and just keep our trap shut when he's beating up on the kid down the street so we don't make him 'defriend' us? Is that what supporting Trump means signing on to?


Jim

What's the alternative? Bomb Kim into oblivion? Antagonize him into nuking South Korea?

Trump is being diplomatic with Kim, but he isn't being soft or giving Kim anything of value.

How should this be handled, Mr. President?

[carpedm9587]

Could be. But it seems Trump is the one getting his way and not the other way around.

So this is curious. In what way is Trump "getting his way?"

[Sparko]

So this is curious. In what way is Trump "getting his way?"

He is getting Kim to stop shooting missiles at Japan, stopping nuclear testing, sitting down with South Korea and negotiating the end of the Korean war and allowing south Koreans to visit relatives in North Korea.

A hell of a lot more than any other President has accomplished with North Korea.

[rogue06]

He is getting Kim to stop shooting missiles at Japan, stopping nuclear testing, sitting down with South Korea and negotiating the end of the Korean war and allowing south Koreans to visit relatives in North Korea.

A hell of a lot more than any other President has accomplished with North Korea.

There was also the returning of the remains of some American servicemen and reducing the shrillness of the anti-American propaganda inside the country.

[oxmixmudd]

I'm really surprised your analogies are so weak. The "neighborhood bully" doesn't have 'God-knows-how-many' nuclear weapons at his disposal, and hasn't been dealt with for decades by previous administrations with no positive results.

And I guess that is why Kim developed the bombs in the first place, isn't it? To force the US to sit down and talk to him. Not sure rewarding that is a good thing. But, at the same time, you are correct in that NOTHING has been accomplished so far by any other administration. So you have a point - hopefully something is better than nothing.

Jim

[oxmixmudd]

What's the alternative? Bomb Kim into oblivion? Antagonize him into nuking South Korea?

Trump is being diplomatic with Kim, but he isn't being soft or giving Kim anything of value.

How should this be handled, Mr. President?

I don't know about 'diplomatic'. But I will concede that progress is potentially betting than sitting still. I will not concede that progress requires the appearance of abandoning our principles on human rights and the support of those that Kim has brutalized.

Jim

[Sparko]

I don't know about 'diplomatic'. But I will concede that progress is potentially betting than sitting still. I will not concede that progress requires the appearance of abandoning our principles on human rights and the support of those that Kim has brutalized.

Jim

I don't see anyone condoning Kim's human rights violations, not even Trump.

[carpedm9587]

He is getting Kim to stop shooting missiles at Japan, stopping nuclear testing, sitting down with South Korea and negotiating the end of the Korean war and allowing south Koreans to visit relatives in North Korea.

A hell of a lot more than any other President has accomplished with North Korea.

So with regard to missile tests, we had 3 year pauses between 2006 and 2009, and again between 2009 and 2012. Then we had one per year until 2016, after which we had 5 in 2016, then a record 16 n 2017, then 1 in 2018 and so far 2 in 2019 (both in May). The 2019 launches were short range ballistics. So I'm not seeing any particular slow-down, and we have had a massive ramp-up while Trump has been in office.

For nuclear tests, it is true we have only had one since Trump was president. Prior to that there were 2 in 2016, 1 in 2013, 1 in 2009 and 1 in 2006. So I'm not seeing anything remarkable here. NK has pledged to denuclearize before, and we've only been 18 months since the last test.

Concerning ending the war, so far what we have is an agreement to work towards ending the conflict. And that happened after Kim reached out to the south to participate in the Olympic games, and re-opened discussions. Although the U.S. jointly hosted the summits, I don't see a great deal here that is "due to Trump."

I see Trump taking (and his base giving him) a lot of credit - but then Trump pretty much regularly claims credit for things other people do, so this is no surprise.

I think you'd have a hard case to make in attributing any significant advances to Trump. Well - he HAS opened talks with NK, largely by fawning over their dictator and ignoring the atrocities he (and others) commit. When previous presidents suggested doing similar things, they were largely pilloried by the right.

I'm not seeing anything here to be impressed by.