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  1. #231
    tWebber Teallaura's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oxmixmudd View Post
    I have no idea what you are talking about as it relates to Zara's argument on client science. Are you trying to say that my opinion on this has no merit since you have a master's in Political Science and I don't?

    Jim
    Not really, since I argued the opposite. I just find it irritating that someone who advocates/agrees with surrendering policy decisions to experts implies my arguably expert assessment is dishonest. Not to mention the intellectual inconsistency...

    For the record ('cause FF2 will have a cow) I don't think I am correct because I have alphabet soup after my name; I think I'm right because I'm arguing the stronger case.

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  3. #232
    tWebber Teallaura's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zara View Post
    I meant, peer-reviewed through an independent academy and journal. And that related to facts about nature. Value and normative based disagreements are somewhat different. You can have your say about policy initiatives in relation to those facts.

    I'm not sure what firstfloor does, but they seem pretty onto it.
    Oh, so you trust experts only when convenient for your argument. Got it.

  4. #233
    tWebber Teallaura's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oxmixmudd View Post
    As I said before - I'd bet the farm there are 1000s of equally offensive private comments and communications out there between diplomats of various shapes and sizes. Probably ones that could cause a great deal of offense more than this one did.

    Yet those private comments and communique's are not causing any problems right now. Are the diplomats that uttered them better than the UK ambassador under discussion? Is that why?

    No - the reason they are not causing trouble is their content is not known.

    Therefore, it is the making the content known that is the problem.

    What made the content known?

    The leak.

    Therefore, the leak is the problem, not the communique.


    Jim
    There are probably thousands of defective cars on the road right now but it's okay because they haven't caused a wreck yet. However, when the inevitable wreck does happen, I assure you the driver that knowingly drove the car and failed to take it in for the recall WILL be liable.

    That other people are equally incompetent isn't mitigation for the wreck or the international incident this ambassador caused by ineptly putting such insults in an official diplomatic report.

    You're literally arguing that lighting a match next to a gasoline spill wasn't causative in the explosion.

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  6. #234
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teallaura View Post
    Oh, so you trust experts only when convenient for your argument. Got it.
    No, just what an expert looks like. This was covered in my previous posts.

  7. #235
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teallaura View Post
    There are probably thousands of defective cars on the road right now but it's okay because they haven't caused a wreck yet. However, when the inevitable wreck does happen, I assure you the driver that knowingly drove the car and failed to take it in for the recall WILL be liable.

    That other people are equally incompetent isn't mitigation for the wreck or the international incident this ambassador caused by ineptly putting such insults in an official diplomatic report.

    You're literally arguing that lighting a match next to a gasoline spill wasn't causative in the explosion.
    The explosion had already happened, he was just reporting it back in relatively informal language. Even if he had used diplomatic coded language, his reports on the administration wouldn't have been different. That remains a concern; as does how and why the information was leaked.

  8. #236
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teallaura View Post
    Not really, since I argued the opposite. I just find it irritating that someone who advocates/agrees with surrendering policy decisions to experts implies my arguably expert assessment is dishonest. Not to mention the intellectual inconsistency...

    For the record ('cause FF2 will have a cow) I don't think I am correct because I have alphabet soup after my name; I think I'm right because I'm arguing the stronger case.
    You still are making no sense. Are you confusing me with someone else?

    Jim

  9. #237
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teallaura View Post
    There are probably thousands of defective cars on the road right now but it's okay because they haven't caused a wreck yet. However, when the inevitable wreck does happen, I assure you the driver that knowingly drove the car and failed to take it in for the recall WILL be liable.

    That other people are equally incompetent isn't mitigation for the wreck or the international incident this ambassador caused by ineptly putting such insults in an official diplomatic report.

    You're literally arguing that lighting a match next to a gasoline spill wasn't causative in the explosion.
    No, im arguing that most ambassadors try to give their true assessments, and that most of the time that means things have to be said that if they were made public they would embarass or disappoint or offend the people involved.

    People in charge or in power rarely see themselves for who they are.


    Jim

  10. #238
    tWebber Teallaura's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oxmixmudd View Post
    You still are making no sense. Are you confusing me with someone else?

    Jim
    As I stated, you supported Zara's argument.

  11. #239
    tWebber Teallaura's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oxmixmudd View Post
    No, im arguing that most ambassadors try to give their true assessments, and that most of the time that means things have to be said that if they were made public they would embarass or disappoint or offend the people involved.

    People in charge or in power rarely see themselves for who they are.


    Jim
    You have been arguing that the leak, not the report, is the source of the trouble. However, it's the report, not the leak, that has inflamed the situation.

    'You're being rather unreasonable' versus 'You're a jerk'. Good ambassadors know not to put in writing anything they don't want to see on the front page because leaks and intel losses are inevitable. And good ambassadors know how to write diplomatically. Your argument seems to be 'well, other diplomats are also that stupid'. Great, even if true, it does not justify this one - or make his incompetence competent.

    No one sees themselves perfectly - nor do we ever perfectly understand others. Especially when blinded by our own prejudices. This is why it's best to assess others charitably - in hopes of receiving the same.

  12. #240
    tWebber Teallaura's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zara View Post
    The explosion had already happened, he was just reporting it back in relatively informal language. Even if he had used diplomatic coded language, his reports on the administration wouldn't have been different. That remains a concern; as does how and why the information was leaked.
    If he'd written tactfully, the incident would have been minor, if even that. But no, he writes like a kid and voila, international incident.

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