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  • Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
    But he did. He created the document that lead to the incident. Blaming Trump is only slightly less dumb than blaming Pelosi would be. The ambassador, not Trump, caused the incident. Trump, as I stated, gave the UK two outs which helps minimize the incident.

    I disliked the Obama admin - but they would have been idiots to tolerate such a thing, and bigger ones to keep working with the guy. In actuality, as much as it galls me, they even occasionally did things right.

    What the UK really needs to do is buy their diplomats a thesaurus.
    Oh, can you imagine if a diplomat had been caught saying this about Obama? The cries of "Racism!" would have been deafening, and the UK government would probably have fired him on the spot in order to save face.

    I suspect the only reason ox is attempting to defend this guy is because he talked nasty about Trump.
    Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
    But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
    Than a fool in the eyes of God


    From "Fools Gold" by Petra

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
      Obviously the UK will just replace the ambassador with another one and tell him to be more careful with his wording, try to be a bit more Diplomatic with Trump in public and will try to plug the leak. Problem solved.
      Yup.The UK needs Trump because the chances of no Brexit are dwindling fast. The UK is gonna need US trade relations and Trump already supports that.

      Come to think of it, I wouldn't be surprised if the leak weren't a way of culling a potentially dangerous diplomat. I also wouldn't be surprised if the EU were behind it. Or Russia, or...
      "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

      "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

      My Personal Blog

      My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

      Quill Sword

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
        Nah, the EU tops the list - Brexit, and the UK's history of not following the crowd, have made for considerable tension. Do you really think the EU couldn't have given May a more workable deal? Damaging the US relations that the UK is banking on would delight the EU no end.
        I think that personal enemies and rivals within May's Administration are the most likely candidate.

        I'm always still in trouble again

        "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
        "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
        "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

        Comment


        • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
          First - that ambassador was not trying to hurt US/UK relations
          How is what he wrote about Trump and his administration NOT going to hurt the UK/US relations, especially if they are taken seriously? The result would be the UK not taking Trump seriously, losing respect for the USA in general, etc. That would hurt the UK/US relations. So yes, he was trying to hurt the US/UK relations. He sure as hell wasn't trying to make them better was he?

          Comment


          • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
            I think that personal enemies and rivals within May's Administration are the most likely candidate.
            Certainly possible. I think the suspect list is gonna be a long one.
            "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

            "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

            My Personal Blog

            My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

            Quill Sword

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
              Certainly possible. I think the suspect list is gonna be a long one.
              Jaltus.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
                Certainly possible. I think the suspect list is gonna be a long one.
                It could just a easily be someone with no other motive than to have a laugh.
                Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                Than a fool in the eyes of God


                From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                  How is what he wrote about Trump and his administration NOT going to hurt the UK/US relations, especially if they are taken seriously? The result would be the UK not taking Trump seriously, losing respect for the USA in general, etc. That would hurt the UK/US relations. So yes, he was trying to hurt the US/UK relations. He sure as hell wasn't trying to make them better was he?
                  If it is the truth, then it helps the UK protect itself from the consequences, and may help the UK to deal with Trump in ways that don't have longer term consequences.


                  You keep acting like the truth is a bad thing. If Trump is inept, then the governments that work with him need to know it. Do you really suppose it is actually best of we pretend the Emperor's new cloths look really good?

                  So the issue really is whether or not the assessment is correct, not that he said those words.

                  Jim
                  My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

                  If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

                  This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
                    If it is the truth, then it helps the UK protect itself from the consequences, and may help the UK to deal with Trump in ways that don't have longer term consequences.


                    You keep acting like the truth is a bad thing. If Trump is inept, then the governments that work with him need to know it. Do you really suppose it is actually best of we pretend the Emperor's new cloths look really good?

                    So the issue really is whether or not the assessment is correct, not that he said those words.

                    Jim
                    If they believe the US is inept then they will not want to deal with the US or trust it. That means the relations will suffer. This isn't rocket science, Jim. How do you have a better relationship with someone you don't respect or believe is inept? Do you have a better or worse relationship with Mountain Man now that you know he is a rabid Trump supporter?

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                      If they believe the US is inept then they will not want to deal with the US or trust it. That means the relations will suffer. This isn't rocket science, Jim. How do you have a better relationship with someone you don't respect or believe is inept? Do you have a better or worse relationship with Mountain Man now that you know he is a rabid Trump supporter?
                      Exactly Sparko. So if it's an accurate assessment, it is a very big problem. But it's not the words that create the problem if it's accurate, it's the president himself. (likewise, it's not the phrase 'trump supporter' or my belief that MM is a Trump supporter that makes conversations with MM about Trump difficult)

                      But to be clear, the ineptness was attributed to the current president, not the US as a whole. And it really doesn't matter what the reaction is if the assessment is true assuming the communique was private - for official eyes only in the UK. The truth is what the UK needed to know, and what their ambassador believed he was giving them. If he is wrong - then they may need a new ambassador. If he is correct, then they needed to know so that they could deal with Trump accordingly. And that may well mean not sharing critical intel and so forth.

                      The sad truth is - as I said earlier - the UK ambassador is likely not the only ambassador to relay such a message to their governments - though perhaps less graphically worded - and that should concern all of us - and not just so we can browbeat their governments into shipping out new ambassadors.


                      Jim
                      Last edited by oxmixmudd; 07-09-2019, 10:29 AM.
                      My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

                      If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

                      This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                        It could just a easily be someone with no other motive than to have a laugh.


                        "Some men just want to watch the world burn"

                        Alfred, The Dark Knight.
                        Last edited by oxmixmudd; 07-09-2019, 10:33 AM.
                        My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

                        If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

                        This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
                          Exactly Sparko. So if it's an accurate assessment, it is a very big problem. It's not the words that create the problem if it's accurate, it's the president himself.

                          But to be clear, the ineptness was attributed to the current president, not the US as a whole. And it really doesn't matter what the reaction is if the assessment is true assuming the communique was private - for official eyes only in the UK. The truth is what the UK needed to know, and what their ambassador believed he was giving them. If he is wrong - then they may need a new ambassador. If he is correct, then they needed to know so that they could deal with Trump accordingly. And that may well mean not sharing critical intel and so forth.

                          The sad truth is - as I said earlier - the UK ambassador is likely not the only ambassador to relay such a message to their governments - though perhaps less graphically worded - and that should concern all of us - and not just so we can browbeat their governments into shipping out new ambassadors.


                          Jim
                          Repeating yourself doesn't change anything Jim. If they believe him then their view of the USA will be lowered. As will their trust and respect. Which would be reciprocated by the US. That is defacto what it means to have relations suffer. Perhaps it is justified in your view, but it still would be the relations suffering, not getting better.

                          For example, say in 1937 the USA and Nazi Germany were getting along fine and our Ambassador wrote a message to the President saying "This Hitler guy is a real turd. We can't trust him or his administration as far as we can spit!" -- would that not cause the US/German relations to suffer? Deservedly so in that case, but suffer none-the-less? We would no longer be buddy buddy with them would we?

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                            Repeating yourself doesn't change anything Jim. If they believe him then their view of the USA will be lowered. As will their trust and respect. Which would be reciprocated by the US. That is defacto what it means to have relations suffer. Perhaps it is justified in your view, but it still would be the relations suffering, not getting better.

                            For example, say in 1937 the USA and Nazi Germany were getting along fine and our Ambassador wrote a message to the President saying "This Hitler guy is a real turd. We can't trust him or his administration as far as we can spit!" -- would that not cause the US/German relations to suffer? Deservedly so in that case, but suffer none-the-less? We would no longer be buddy buddy with them would we?
                            Are you advocating the ambassador lie to his government to cover up the truth to keep 'relations' superficially chummy?

                            And my expectation would be that the British Government is competent enough to know that Trump is inept and still deal diplomatically with him on open conversation (as would be almost all of our officials - save Trump himself - which more or less is the point, the reason the ambassador said what he did)

                            Jim
                            My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

                            If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

                            This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
                              Exactly Sparko. So if it's an accurate assessment, it is a very big problem. But it's not the words that create the problem if it's accurate, it's the president himself. (likewise, it's not the phrase 'trump supporter' or my belief that MM is a Trump supporter that makes conversations with MM about Trump difficult)

                              But to be clear, the ineptness was attributed to the current president, not the US as a whole. And it really doesn't matter what the reaction is if the assessment is true assuming the communique was private - for official eyes only in the UK. The truth is what the UK needed to know, and what their ambassador believed he was giving them. If he is wrong - then they may need a new ambassador. If he is correct, then they needed to know so that they could deal with Trump accordingly. And that may well mean not sharing critical intel and so forth.

                              The sad truth is - as I said earlier - the UK ambassador is likely not the only ambassador to relay such a message to their governments - though perhaps less graphically worded - and that should concern all of us - and not just so we can browbeat their governments into shipping out new ambassadors.


                              Jim
                              No, it's a big problem regardless of whether or not it's true. Also, Trump could have made things much worse, so it appears to be false.
                              "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

                              "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

                              My Personal Blog

                              My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

                              Quill Sword

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
                                Are you advocating the ambassador lie to his government to cover up the truth to keep 'relations' superficially chummy?

                                And my expectation would be that the British Government is competent enough to know that Trump is inept and still deal diplomatically with him on open conversation (as would be almost all of our officials - save Trump himself - which more or less is the point, the reason the ambassador said what he did)

                                Jim

                                The ambassador, not the President, caused an international incident. Looking at the facts, who's actually inept? The ambassador.
                                "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

                                "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

                                My Personal Blog

                                My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

                                Quill Sword

                                Comment

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