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Thread: Happy Independence Day!

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    Department Head Apologiaphoenix's Avatar
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    Happy Independence Day!

    Enjoy your day!

    Link

    ----

    What is today? Letís plunge into the Deeper Waters and find out.

    Last year, I remember hearing something about this day that stuck with me. That was to not call it the 4th of July. Of course, the day after the 3rd and the day before the 5th is indeed the 4th, but what are we celebrating today? Does it just happen to be a random day we chose to celebrate?

    When Christmas comes around, we donít normally say happy 25th of December. When Halloween comes, itís not happy 31st of October. We could go on with Saint Patrickís Day or Saint Valentineís Day. Even holidays where the date changes like Motherís Day, Easter, or Labor Day, we still call by their names.

    Why not do the same with Independence Day?

    Today, we are really celebrating something. For those of us who live in America, we are celebrating the day that we proclaimed ourselves to be our own nation. We are celebrating that we can worship as we see fit or for non-theistic readers, not worship as we see fit. We donít have taxation without representation or anything like that.

    Of course, there are plenty of critics on this day who donít like a lot of things that have happened in America. I donít like everything either. I donít like that weíve become an abortion culture and a culture that doesnít recognize what marriage is any more. Still, I realize we live in a country of freedom and I hope that we can use that freedom to bring about the greater change that needs to come.

    For those of us who are Christians, we truly enjoy so much freedom and we take it for granted. Sure, we have sad cases where bakers and florists have been sued by homosexual couples and I fear this movement gaining more power and limiting our freedoms, but we can still worship as we see fit. We can go to the church that we choose. The government is not knocking on our doors demanding our Bibles. The early church would have loved to have had this kind of treatment.

    Last night I thought about this going to bed. My wife goes before I do and I stay up doing some extra work on the computer so I can devote my waking hours to her all the more. As I was going to join her when the time came, I thought about what a privilege we have.

    Many of my readers who follow a Christian ethic understand the idea of saving sex for marriage and think that when we talk about the joy of sharing a bed together, it means that. It does, but it means more than just that. Itís a privilege to not be sleeping alone but waking up and knowing there is someone there next to you.

    Today, weíll be going to see my in-laws for a cookout of sorts. I donít care for cookouts, but the good thing is we donít fear any persecution on the way. We are safe. At this point, to further protect our safety, we also have the right to bear arms to defend ourselves if need be.

    All of this started because about 243 years ago, a few dozen men were courageous enough to make a unique stand in history and declare themselves a free people. Freedom itself wasnít free. Many people died to protect that freedom. Thatís why my wife and I always thank military people for their service when we see them.

    Happy Independence Day. For my fellow Americans, enjoy the day and for that matter, enjoy every other day as well. Theyíre all gifts.

    In Christ,
    Nick Peters

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    Professor KingsGambit's Avatar
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    I know everybody here will be furious with me, but as a Christian, I don't see how Independence Day isn't celebrating sin. According to Romans 13, the British authorities were appointed by God, and Independence Day is a celebration of rebellion against those authorities.
    For what was given to everyone for the use of all, you have taken for your exclusive use. The earth belongs not to the rich, but to everyone. - Ambrose, 4th century AD

    All cruelty springs from weakness. - Seneca the Younger

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    See, the Thing is... Cow Poke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KingsGambit View Post
    I know everybody here will be furious with me, but as a Christian, I don't see how Independence Day isn't celebrating sin. According to Romans 13, the British authorities were appointed by God, and Independence Day is a celebration of rebellion against those authorities.
    I won't be the least bit upset with you.

    A) This is the USofA where we can freely express our opinions.
    2) You're my brother!

    (not necessarily in that order)
    I have called you my friends.... Jesus
    Jn 15:15

  4. Amen KingsGambit amen'd this post.
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    Troll Magnet Sparko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KingsGambit View Post
    I know everybody here will be furious with me, but as a Christian, I don't see how Independence Day isn't celebrating sin. According to Romans 13, the British authorities were appointed by God, and Independence Day is a celebration of rebellion against those authorities.
    We just did Brexit first.

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    tWebber Faber's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KingsGambit View Post
    I know everybody here will be furious with me, but as a Christian, I don't see how Independence Day isn't celebrating sin. According to Romans 13, the British authorities were appointed by God, and Independence Day is a celebration of rebellion against those authorities.
    I wrote an essay in a college English class, stating that if we had not rebelled against England, slavery would have been abolished by 1800. I added Scripture, "Fear God, Honor the King" and "Obey every ordinance of men for the Lord's sake", etc. When I walked into the class the next week, he remarked before the class that "Fear God, Honor the king" was a quote from the Crusades, not from the Bible. I had to correct him in front of the class.

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    See, the Thing is... Cow Poke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Faber View Post
    I wrote an essay in a college English class, stating that if we had not rebelled against England, slavery would have been abolished by 1800. I added Scripture, "Fear God, Honor the King" and "Obey every ordinance of men for the Lord's sake", etc. When I walked into the class the next week, he remarked before the class that "Fear God, Honor the king" was a quote from the Crusades, not from the Bible. I had to correct him in front of the class.
    Laughing.... I had a similar experience with an English Professor who "corrected" me that the "house divided" principle came from Abraham Lincoln, not from the Bible.
    I have called you my friends.... Jesus
    Jn 15:15

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    tWebber Adrift's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KingsGambit View Post
    I know everybody here will be furious with me, but as a Christian, I don't see how Independence Day isn't celebrating sin. According to Romans 13, the British authorities were appointed by God, and Independence Day is a celebration of rebellion against those authorities.
    This a topic I'd like to explore a bit more when I have more time, but a a couple thoughts occur at the outset. First the passage in question:

    Scripture Verse: Romans 13:1-7

    13 Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2 Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. 3 For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and you will be commended. 4 For the one in authority is Godís servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for rulers do not bear the sword for no reason. They are Godís servants, agents of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. 5 Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also as a matter of conscience.

    6 This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are Godís servants, who give their full time to governing. 7 Give to everyone what you owe them: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor.

    © Copyright Original Source



    Romans 13 says to be subject to, or to submit to governing authorities, and obedience normally comes through submission, but there's a fine distinction between obedience, and submission, certainly between mindless obedience and submission. I think there's something to that. Another thought, Romans 13 states that all authority has been established by God, but it doesn't say that all authority is Godly, or God ordained. Another fine line distinction that may have more to do with God's sovereignty over all, even those who are set against his people. To add to this, it also seems to be a suggestion that authority that provides law and order itself is something that is established by God. That is, it's good for a society to have order, because God is a God of order, and not of chaos and confusion, and so, in that sense, lawful authority is to be preferred over crazy town. Third thought, the passage says that those who will resist the authorities that God has appointed will incur judgment, but judgment isn't necessarily the same as condemnation. Perhaps when judgment passes, the rebel has been shown to be justified. 4th thought, God's people have rebelled against authorities in the past with God's consent, rebelling against Pharaoh leading up to the Exodus, or against the will of Nebuchadnezzar when commanded to bow before his image. So, there do seem to be times that God approves of, even demands that we rebel against the authorities that he has established.

    Anyhow, I imagine this should be split off into it's own thread, since it's a bit off topic.
    Last edited by Adrift; 07-05-2019 at 11:21 AM.

  9. Amen Cerebrum123 amen'd this post.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adrift View Post
    This a topic I'd like to explore a bit more when I have more time, but a a couple thoughts occur at the outset. First the passage in question:

    Scripture Verse: Romans 13:1-7

    13 Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2 Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. 3 For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and you will be commended. 4 For the one in authority is Godís servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for rulers do not bear the sword for no reason. They are Godís servants, agents of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. 5 Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also as a matter of conscience.

    6 This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are Godís servants, who give their full time to governing. 7 Give to everyone what you owe them: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor.

    © Copyright Original Source



    Romans 13 says to be subject to, or to submit to governing authorities, and obedience normally comes through submission, but there's a fine distinction between obedience, and submission, certainly between mindless obedience and submission. I think there's something to that. Another thought, Romans 13 states that all authority has been established by God, but it doesn't say that all authority is Godly, or God ordained. Another fine line distinction that may have more to do with God's sovereignty over all, even those who are set against his people. To add to this, it also seems to be a suggestion that authority that provides law and order itself is something that is established by God. That is, it's good for a society to have order, because God is a God of order, and not of chaos and confusion, and so, in that sense, lawful authority is to be preferred over crazy town. Third thought, the passage says that those who will resist the authorities that God has appointed will incur judgment, but judgment isn't necessarily the same as condemnation. Perhaps when judgment passes, the rebel has been shown to be justified. 4th thought, God's people have rebelled against authorities in the past with God's consent, rebelling against Pharaoh leading up to the Exodus, or against the will of Nebuchadnezzar when commanded to bow before his image. So, there do seem to be times that God approves of, even demands that we rebel against the authorities that he has established.

    Anyhow, I imagine this should be split off into it's own thread, since it's a bit off topic.
    If it needs its own thread, this post can go along wherever.

    The same argument has pretty much been used in the old days when we smuggled Bibles into the Soviet Union. Those Russian (and other Soviet) Christians knew they were disobeying their government, but they were still subject to it's power, knowing that, if they got caught, there were proscribed penalties that would come into play.
    I have called you my friends.... Jesus
    Jn 15:15

  11. Amen Adrift amen'd this post.
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    Troll Magnet Sparko's Avatar
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    I think the unspoken message in Romans 13 is that the authorities established by God are supposed to do his will. If they are God's servants they should obey God. If they don't, then they are not his servants, but themselves are rebelling against God and we have no obligation to follow them in their rebellion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adrift View Post
    This a topic I'd like to explore a bit more when I have more time, but a a couple thoughts occur at the outset. First the passage in question:

    Scripture Verse: Romans 13:1-7

    13 Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2 Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. 3 For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and you will be commended. 4 For the one in authority is Godís servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for rulers do not bear the sword for no reason. They are Godís servants, agents of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. 5 Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also as a matter of conscience.

    6 This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are Godís servants, who give their full time to governing. 7 Give to everyone what you owe them: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor.

    © Copyright Original Source



    Romans 13 says to be subject to, or to submit to governing authorities, and obedience normally comes through submission, but there's a fine distinction between obedience, and submission, certainly between mindless obedience and submission. I think there's something to that. Another thought, Romans 13 states that all authority has been established by God, but it doesn't say that all authority is Godly, or God ordained. Another fine line distinction that may have more to do with God's sovereignty over all, even those who are set against his people. To add to this, it also seems to be a suggestion that authority that provides law and order itself is something that is established by God. That is, it's good for a society to have order, because God is a God of order, and not of chaos and confusion, and so, in that sense, lawful authority is to be preferred over crazy town. Third thought, the passage says that those who will resist the authorities that God has appointed will incur judgment, but judgment isn't necessarily the same as condemnation. Perhaps when judgment passes, the rebel has been shown to be justified. 4th thought, God's people have rebelled against authorities in the past with God's consent, rebelling against Pharaoh leading up to the Exodus, or against the will of Nebuchadnezzar when commanded to bow before his image. So, there do seem to be times that God approves of, even demands that we rebel against the authorities that he has established.

    Anyhow, I imagine this should be split off into it's own thread, since it's a bit off topic.
    I'm aware of the interpretation that it refers either to a pragmatic reminder that rebelling against the Romans will get you crucified, or to a pragmatic decision not to bring unnecessary shame on Christianity at the moment. The former seems acontextual (and completely ignores verse 5), and the latter is more plausible, but I don't think it alone can account for the appeal to conscience in verse 5.

    The burden of proof would still remain on the person who wishes to celebrate the American Revolution to demonstrate that the revolution remains justified in light of these verses. I had a back and forth with an apologist friend on Facebook who argued that there exists an unspoken rule that revolutions are justified if the rulers are bad and do not obey God, and that the British triggered this rule with their taxes. Frankly, I think this argument is ridiculous. Their taxes pale in comparison to the taxes we pay today (yet few Christians call for an armed rebellion against the government today), and if Paul didn't think the pagan emperors were bad enough to rebel against then, why would King George have been worse?
    For what was given to everyone for the use of all, you have taken for your exclusive use. The earth belongs not to the rich, but to everyone. - Ambrose, 4th century AD

    All cruelty springs from weakness. - Seneca the Younger

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