Noncompliance Kneecaps New Zealand's Gun Control Scheme

[Sparko]

Doesn't seem to cover burglary or black market

That was in the next sentence:

"Forty percent of state prison inmates admitted they obtained the gun illegally on the black market, from a drug dealer, or by stealing it."

[Adrift]

People tend to steal from those they know just like overwhelmingly the majority of murder victims knew their killer.

Yep, but that doesn't really undermine my thinking it interesting.

[Adrift]

um that pretty much covers every method, legal and illegal.

Yep, pretty much.

[Adrift]

Doesn't seem to cover burglary or black market

It does.

[Sparko]

Yep, but that doesn't really undermine my thinking it interesting.

OK, but it really doesn't say what percentage was gotten from friends and whether it was legally or illegally. It basically just says "Prisoners in prison got guns legally or illegally"

The chart breaks it down better into about 18% legally owned guns used in crimes and around 79% illegal.

[rogue06]

It does.

I was looking at Sparko's quote and missed it was only partial.

[Adrift]

OK, but it really doesn't say what percentage was gotten from friends and whether it was legally or illegally. It basically just says "Prisoners in prison got guns legally or illegally"

The chart breaks it down better into about 18% legally owned guns used in crimes and around 79% illegal.

A portion of that 79% was acquired from legal gun owners rather than purely blackmarket or from drug dealers. I don't know about you, but that gives me a broader picture about how guns used in homicides are acquired, and I could see that sort of detail being important to someone who's thinking about gun legislation overall.

[Sparko]

A portion of that 79% was acquired from legal gun owners rather than purely blackmarket or from drug dealers. I don't know about you, but that gives me a broader picture about how guns used in homicides are acquired, and I could see that sort of detail being important to someone who's thinking about gun legislation overall.

That's what I was saying earlier, I don't think they counted anyone getting the guns legally from their friends or gun shows in the 79%, only those who got them illegally, such as maybe stealing them from their friends.

repeat:

"They found that in approximately 8 out of 10 cases, the perpetrator was not a lawful gun owner but rather in illegal possession of a weapon that belonged to someone else. The researchers were primarily interested in how these guns made their way from a legal purchase — at a firearm dealer or via a private sale — to the scene of the crime.

[Zara]

So in other words you just make up stuff and present it as fact? I guess we can just ignore anything you say from now on unless you provide a source. Good to know.

Yeah, nah. First, the crack epidemic extended into the 90s. Second, I'm not the one that's making associations between things that are by no way verified - I.e., making stuff up. That was the premise of MM's claim between increase in gun ownership and decrease in crime, correlation, not causation.

Either way, the statistics presented weren't made up. Nor is the terrible state of US gun crime. But by all means, enjoy shooting each other in your backwards little country.

[Sparko]

Yeah, nah. First, the crack epidemic extended into the 90s. Second, I'm not the one that's making associations between things that are by no way verified - I.e., making stuff up.

uh, yeah, you are. You literally just admitted it in your last post:

Was it the crack epidemic, who knows, it's just as speculative as your association.

That was the premise of MM's claim between increase in gun ownership and decrease in crime, correlation, not causation.

what does that have to do with you making up stuff?

Either way, the statistics presented weren't made up.

You didn't present any statistics to support your link to crack.

Nor is the terrible state of US gun crime. But by all means, enjoy shooting each other in your backwards little country.

LOL. Sounds like Starlight is coaching you via PM.

[Zara]

uh, yeah, you are. You literally just admitted it in your last post:





what does that have to do with you making up stuff?


You didn't present any statistics to support your link to crack.




LOL. Sounds like Starlight is coaching you via PM.

Presenting statistics and then making an association is the same as making stuff up, you just agreed with that.

I made an association between murder rates and the crack epidemic - which, btw, is not controversial. Meanwhile your mountain man is making associations between gun owners ship and crime reduction, again, completely irrelevant to what caused the reduction in crime outside of his say-so.

Do you want me to find an article that shows the crack epidemic is associated with the time period in which murder rates were high? I can, we both know that.


I don't know Starlight. I do know that US gun policy is a global joke.

[Adrift]

That's what I was saying earlier, I don't think they counted anyone getting the guns legally from their friends or gun shows in the 79%, only those who got them illegally, such as maybe stealing them from their friends.

repeat:

"They found that in approximately 8 out of 10 cases, the perpetrator was not a lawful gun owner but rather in illegal possession of a weapon that belonged to someone else. The researchers were primarily interested in how these guns made their way from a legal purchase — at a firearm dealer or via a private sale — to the scene of the crime.

Ok, and? I guess I'm confused about the point you're making. Are you reading "illegal possession" as in only stolen guns? Doesn't illegal possession also include guns that are taken/borrowed/given when state laws require a permit or background check? Either way, the point is that guns are apparently very easily acquired outside of the black market, and used for nefarious reasons, apparently at rates slightly higher than through the black market if the study is accurate. Again, that's something that I think someone thinking about gun legislation might find significant.

[Sparko]

Presenting statistics and then making an association is the same as making stuff up, you just agreed with that.

What are you smoking? You made up a reason why gun homicides went down but supplied no source to back up your imagination. I guess I could just say gun violence went down after the gun ban in Australia because the people ate more oranges and that would make as much sense as you did.

I made an association between murder rates and the crack epidemic - which, btw, is not controversial.

well first you would have to show that most of the murders were caused by crack in the first place, then show how they were reduced when crack use went down.

Meanwhile your mountain man is making associations between gun owners ship and crime reduction, again, completely irrelevant to what caused the reduction in crime outside of his say-so.

No he just mentioned two facts: Gun ownership went up and gun murders went down. Both are actual verifiable facts. So if you want to claim that more guns means more gun murders, the facts are against you.

Do you want me to find an article that shows the crack epidemic is associated with the time period in which murder rates were high? I can, we both know that.

You will need to show that the excess murders that got reduced were all because of crack.

I don't know Starlight. I do know that US gun policy is a global joke.

right...

[Adrift]

Meanwhile your mountain man is making associations between gun owners ship and crime reduction, again, completely irrelevant to what caused the reduction in crime outside of his say-so.

This is a interesting point seeing as violent crime (especially homicide) within 1st world nations in general apparently went down in the same period starting around the early 90s. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_drop

So the drop in crime in the US is unlikely to be correlated with an increase in guns purchases (and it should be noted that while many of those guns were purchased by first time owners, a significant number were purchased by previous owners scared of the threat of stricter restrictions).

[Zara]

[QUOTE=Sparko;652325]What are you smoking? You made up a reason why gun homicides went down but supplied no source to back up your imagination. I guess I could just say gun violence went down after the gun ban in Australia because the people ate more oranges and that would make as much sense as you did.

Hey, I presented the facts where it shows that it did. But you don't want to accept it because, what, imagination?

Here you go regarding crack: "Our index of crack is strongly correlated with a range of social indicators. We find that the rise in crack from 1984-1989 is associated with a doubling of homicide victimizations of Black males aged 14-17, a 30 percent increase for Black males aged 18-24, and a 10 percent increase for Black males 25 and over, and thus accounts for much of the observed variation in homicide rates over this time period ... Although our crack index remains high through the 1990s, the deleterious social impact of crack fades. ... The link between crack and adverse social outcomes weakens, however, over the course of the sample. Even though crack use does not disappear, the adverse social consequences largely do. Thus, by the year 2000, we observe little impact of crack, which accounts for much of the recovery in homicide rates and child outcomes for Blacks over the period. We hypothesize that the decoupling of crack and violence may be associated with the establishment of property rights and the declining profitability of crack distribution." Source

Now where is your research to show that increased gun ownership result in lower crime - while countries with highly regulated gun ownership have significantly lower rates of violent crime than the US.

But all good, I'm not really interested in changing your mind tbh, the US is whatever it wants to be, go for it - enjoy your high levels of crime.

Since you are going to not believe anything I say after one "supposed" example of me making something up, how is your Trump thing even remotely justified - that 10 second soaking up the crowds chant, as he does, nothing. Then lies about it the next day. Good one.