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Thread: Noncompliance Kneecaps New Zealand's Gun Control Scheme

  1. #71
    tWebber Starlight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rogue06 View Post
    Yeah, I'm sure the 700 firearms turned in represents a sizable percentage of those in private hands.
    You're such a sucker for fake news.

    The first gun-buyback event is tomorrow.

    Maybe at least wait until the gun-buyback actually starts before claiming it's failed? Even better, wait until its finished.

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    tWebber Starlight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raphael View Post
    But the law was still crafted by the idiots from the Greens and Labour and the traitors in WinstonFirst.
    You're kind of glossing over the fact that 100% of the idiots in National voted for the bill too. If they disapproved strongly, they could have voted against it, like ACT did. It passed with 99% of politicians voting for it. Can't blame that on leftist idiots.

  3. #73
    Evolution is God's ID rogue06's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Atheist Pope View Post
    You're such a sucker for fake news.

    The first gun-buyback event is tomorrow.

    Maybe at least wait until the gun-buyback actually starts before claiming it's failed? Even better, wait until its finished.
    According to Radio New Zealand, a Crown entity so they're pretty much an official source, the buyback program began right after the law was enacted back in March and as of July 4 a whole 1000 firearms have been turned in of the estimated 1.2 to 1.5 million guns in private hands.

    It looks like their buyback has been as big a failure as the ones that have taken place here in the U.S.

    Quote Originally Posted by rogue06 View Post
    Buyback programs have proven to well intentioned wastes of money.

    University of Pennsylvania professor Lawrence Sherman, who headed a wide-ranging assessment of crime prevention programs, called gun buybacks “the program that is best-known to be ineffective” in reducing firearms violence, while lecturing at a U.S. National Institute of Justice conference. This view was echoed by Dr. Garen J. Wintermute, director of the Violence Prevention Research Program at the University of California at Davis who has stated that, “The continuation of buyback programs is a triumph of wishful thinking over all available evidence.” To make the point even clearer, Dr Wimtermute also said that, “Gun buybacks or exchanges do not reduce violent crime rates.”

    A report released by the Police Executive Research Forum, a group of big city police chiefs, released in the 1990s when buyback programs were all the rage, clearly showed that these programs don’t work. After evaluating programs in several major cities they found that none had any effects in the cities’ homicide rates.

    This was later confirmed by independent follow-up studies in Seattle, Sacramento, St. Louis and Boston found no evidence buy-back programs reduced crime.

    In the first instance a check of coroner’s records and hospital admissions data in that city for the 6 months after a major buyback found no evidence whatsoever of an effect on firearms-related deaths or injuries. Probably not a surprise considering that nearly a quarter of the guns collected were inoperable.

    Another study in Seattle uncovered the fact that 66% of sellers admitted that they owned another gun, which they didn’t surrender making it questionable just how much disarmament is actually accomplished. The same sort of thing was found in the other cities. According to a study by criminologist Richard Rosenfeld of the University of Missouri-St. Louis, 59% of buy-back participants in Sacramento said they had additional guns at home. In St. Louis it was 62% with 14% of the participants there saying they planned to buy a new gun within the next year, and an additional 13% said they might.

    In Boston a Harvard University study of gun buyback programs found that 75% of the firearms gathered were several decades old. Similarly a study of Milwaukee-area buyback programs by the Medical College of Wisconsin Firearms Injury Center in the mid 1990s discovered that the firearms turned in are not the types generally linked with gun deaths. They tend to be older, small caliber revolvers whereas those used in homicides and suicides tend to be newer, large caliber semi-automatics.

    Moreover those turning in the firearms are often the widow of hunters, or other older people, rather than teenage gang members who have suddenly decided to abandon a life of violence. IOW, most of those voluntarily surrendering their firearms are very unlikely to commit a violent gun crime meaning that the public safety benefit is minimal at best.

    It should also be noted that these buyback programs, with their no questions asked policy, actually create a safe place for criminals to sell unwanted, stolen guns, thus inflating the market for such illegal weapons.

    Finally, at a Hartford Connecticut buyback program about a decade ago they offered $100 for each firearm turned over. It turned out that residents were legally buying handguns at local pawn shops for about $60 to $75 and turning them in for the $100. One man came in with 39 Chinese-made rifles and made a profit of about $1200.

    Similarly, at a gun buy-back program in New Jersey, a man turned in 18 guns, some that couldn’t even be fired, and collected $1350 in certificates for food, clothing and furniture. “Had this guy sold the stuff to a gun dealer, he would have gotten maybe $75 for the lot,” a police officer remarked.

    Also in New Jersey (Camden), a teenager turned in a shotgun and received $50, which he used to buy a handgun that he later used in a homicide. In Brooklyn, New York, after the D.A. raised the “reward” for turned-in guns from $100 to $250, the largest percentage of the guns turned in were .38 police service revolvers from court officers who were allowed to keep their revolvers after they were issued 9mm semiautomatics the previous year. Not exactly taking the guns out of the hands of criminals.

    I can attest that this sort of thing actually happens because here in Atlanta several years back one of the local news outlets (which owns the biggest TV station, AM radio station and the city newspaper) offered tickets to a Janet Jackson concert in exchange to anyone who turned in a firearm. An estatic reporter saw the line of people ready to participate and started interviewing them. Of the three people she interviewed one said that they just bought a derringer for about half of what the tickets would cost him, another said that they were trading in an old rusty firearm and the last one said that she was exchanging her grandmother's pistol for tickets (no indication if the grandmother was aware of this). The crestfallen reporter quickly cut the interviews short.

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  4. #74
    Child of the One True King Raphael's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Atheist Pope View Post
    You're kind of glossing over the fact that 100% of the idiots in National voted for the bill too. If they disapproved strongly, they could have voted against it, like ACT did. It passed with 99% of politicians voting for it. Can't blame that on leftist idiots.
    You're doing that thing again where you assume that because I am on the right politically (I actually sit pretty dead center on most "where are you politically" type polls) I have to agree with everything the major political party on the right does.

    I think National was wrong to vote in favour on it. It is one of the few things I actually agree with ACT on.

    It still doesn't change the fact that the the law was hastily and badly crafted by the Greens, Labour and NZF.

    It is one of the reasons I am seriously considering giving my party vote to the New Conservative Party if they start polling high enough to have a chance of getting in.
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  5. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Atheist Pope View Post
    You're such a sucker for fake news.
    Hey, welcome back!
    I have called you my friends.... Jesus
    Jn 15:15

  6. #76
    tWebber carpedm9587's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparko View Post
    A good example of why we don't want gun registration in the USA.

    Wow, 700 out of 1.5 Million? It's almost as if New Zealanders don't agree with their government or something.

    Hopefully NZ will take notice of the mass objection and repeal their idiotic ban.
    700 targeted weapons out of an unknown number of targeted weapons. There are 1.5 million guns overall - but they are not all banned.
    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

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  7. #77
    tWebber Starlight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rogue06 View Post
    According to Radio New Zealand, a Crown entity so they're pretty much an official source, the buyback program began right after the law was enacted back in March and as of July 4 a whole 1000 firearms have been turned in of the estimated 1.2 to 1.5 million guns in private hands.
    Most types of guns aren't subject to the buy-back and will remain legal so the 1.2 million gun figure is largely irrelevant. The estimated relevant number is 250-300k.

    Apparently 1000 goody-goods have pre-emptively sent in their guns to the police. But the first actual official gun-drop for the buyback is opening tomorrow in Christchurch. The article I linked says police in the Christchurch region have had 1415 online notifications from people in the Christchurch region wanting to drop off their guns. There are 258 such gun-drop events scheduled around the country in the coming months. If those 1415 pre-notified guns are dropped off tomorrow, and the other 257 events have on average the same turnout, then ~365k guns will be returned, which would be impressive given it's higher than the estimated number of relevant guns in circulation. So by current metrics the buyback looks like it's going to be entirely successful.

    It looks like their buyback has been as big a failure as the ones that have taken place here in the U.S.
    Maybe wait until at least the first buyback event has been held before declaring failure? Literally in 24 hours we will have some more data.

    Though, again, as I said previously, the point of the law is to reduce the probability that a future terrorist can get their hands on weapons capable of killing large numbers of people. The law will achieve that, regardless of the number of people who take advantage of the gun buy-back. Even if 100% of the gun-owners decide to hide their now-banned types of gun rather than sell them, to the extent that the law removes the ability of future terrorists to simply walk into a gun shop and buy semi-automatic weaponry with large capacity, or easily obtain such weaponry on standard trading sites (Ebay equivalents), it is successful. Every single weapon handed in is therefore more success, as it means less and less probability of a future terrorist being able to get their hands on such weaponry. There's not really such a thing as failure here.

    If buybacks in the US had been as big a failures as you claim, I suspect you wouldn't be so over-the-top insecure about New Zealand's buyback possibly being as successful as Australia's similar one was, such that you feel the need to make a fool of yourself by pretending to everyone it's failed before it's started.
    Last edited by Starlight; 07-12-2019 at 05:09 AM.

  8. #78
    Child of the One True King Raphael's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carpedm9587 View Post
    700 targeted weapons out of an unknown number of targeted weapons. There are 1.5 million guns overall - but they are not all banned.
    erm, we don't actually know how many guns are in NZ. We don't register guns. We register the owners.
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    tWebber Starlight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raphael View Post
    I actually sit pretty dead center on most "where are you politically" type polls...
    I am seriously considering giving my party vote to the New Conservative Party if they start polling high enough to have a chance of getting in.


    I'm curious though as to why you wouldn't vote NZF? They're socially conservative, economically centrist. That's about what you see yourself as right?

    You're doing that thing again where you assume that because I am on the right politically (I actually sit pretty dead center on most "where are you politically" type polls) I have to agree with everything the major political party on the right does.
    Actually, I was critiquing you because you were selectively blaming leftist parties (and calling Labour and Greens idiots). National was involved in crafting the bill too. It had members on the select committee that tweaked it.

    It still doesn't change the fact that the the law was hastily and badly crafted by the Greens, Labour and NZF.
    Again you repeat this and leave out National? With bipartisan legislation like this, all parties are given significant influence in the writing and tweaking of the law, not just the final voting. The idea is to make sure that the next government won't simply toss the law out as soon as they win, and that's achieved by giving them input into writing it.

    While it was passed quickly, both the previous National and Labour governments had been tossing around bills on the subject of gun reform for years. There's been plenty of background work done. The gun-lobby was able to exert enough influence to prevent those bills coming to a vote though. But in the wake of the Christchurch shooting, the politicians could see a path forward in spite of the gun-lobby, so they just grabbed their previous bills out of the drawer and dusted them off, compared their notes, and then passed it. So I don't think it's fair to claim the law has flaws resulting from its rapid passage. If it does turn out to have some flaws, nothing stops the govt from quickly passing fixes.

  10. #80
    Child of the One True King Raphael's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Atheist Pope View Post
    I'm curious though as to why you wouldn't vote NZF? They're socially conservative, economically centrist. That's about what you see yourself as right?
    might have something to do with the fact that Winston is a lying, thieving, traitor. (not to mention drunkard). Shane Jones is a bully boy. Tracey Martin does just plain nasty as her default response to anything. Ron Mark is a [censored].

    Quote Originally Posted by The Atheist Pope View Post
    Actually, I was critiquing you because you were selectively blaming leftist parties (and calling Labour and Greens idiots). National was involved in crafting the bill too. It had members on the select committee that tweaked it.
    I am blaming them because at the end of the day, they're the ones in power

    Quote Originally Posted by The Atheist Pope View Post
    Again you repeat this and leave out National? With bipartisan legislation like this, all parties are given significant influence in the writing and tweaking of the law, not just the final voting. The idea is to make sure that the next government won't simply toss the law out as soon as they win, and that's achieved by giving them input into writing it.
    Because the time frame was set by our Glorious Leader. It's still a badly thought out stupid law.
    And I think you are not comprehending how much I despise our Coalition of Losers.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Atheist Pope View Post
    While it was passed quickly, both the previous National and Labour governments had been tossing around bills on the subject of gun reform for years. There's been plenty of background work done. The gun-lobby was able to exert enough influence to prevent those bills coming to a vote though. But in the wake of the Christchurch shooting, the politicians could see a path forward in spite of the gun-lobby, so they just grabbed their previous bills out of the drawer and dusted them off, compared their notes, and then passed it. So I don't think it's fair to claim the law has flaws resulting from its rapid passage. If it does turn out to have some flaws, nothing stops the govt from quickly passing fixes.
    Please, there was barely any time for public consultation.
    Most people I've talked (and I know people on both sides of the political spectrum who are gun owners) think that it's a stupid law.
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