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Thread: Noncompliance Kneecaps New Zealand's Gun Control Scheme

  1. #141
    See, the Thing is... Cow Poke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raphael View Post
    I think I've commented in the past that I think that one of the US's biggest problem is the apparent loss of the center
    Or, maybe instead of the "silent majority", we have a "silent center". IF, in fact, they exist at all.
    Every problem is the result of a previous solution.

  2. Amen Raphael amen'd this post.
  3. #142
    tWebber Starlight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cow Poke View Post
    These buyback programs are all about feeling good, not actually doing anything meaningful.

    Gun buybacks popular but ineffective, experts say
    As I understand it, you're talking about a totally different type of buyback program. The examples you give from America, AFAICT, are where the gun laws haven't changed with regard to what guns are legal, but where someone in govt just gets an idea along the lines of "maybe if we paid people for their guns, there'd be less guns in circulation?" Obviously that doesn't work particularly usefully because people are continuing to purchase the same kinds of guns in stores even while the buyback is running, so the total numbers of those types of guns in circulation doesn't change. Nothing stops a person selling an old gun and using the money they got from the buyback to help them buy a new gun of exactly the same kind.

    NZ's buyback, and that done in Australia some years back, is different, because they are changing the law so certain types of gun are now illegal. Those types of gun will no longer be able to be sold in stores, hence there are no new instances of those types of gun going into circulation. The buyback itself which is specifically only for the newly-illegal types of gun then reduces the total number of those types of guns in circulation. So it succeeds in a way the US version doesn't. The goal is to minimize the number of these particular types of gun in circulation, and the law change and buyback will achieve that.

  4. #143
    Evolution is God's ID rogue06's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raphael View Post

    You really completely delusional about what is left and right of politics. The only right wing journalist is Mike Hosking.
    The majority of rest are all left to very left liberals.
    To someone who repeatedly insisted that the communist dictator Joseph Stalin was a right winger, virtually everyone is "very right-wing" in his eyes.

    I'm always still in trouble again

    "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" -- starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)

  5. Amen Raphael, Adrift, RumTumTugger amen'd this post.
  6. #144
    tWebber Tassman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Man View Post
    Yes. That is the the outlier in your country. But if you look at the 30-years before and the 30-years after, the death toll from mass killings is roughly same, and your rates of violent crime, homicide, and suicide are higher now than before the ban.
    The Port Arthur massacre wasn’t the “outlier”, it is the measure of what has been achieved by the firearm ban. As with the current action in NZ, Australia’s decisive action in the form of the gun-buy-back program has prevented a similar mass-shooting reoccurring.

    So on balance, banning guns did nothing at all to improve peace and safety in Australia. That's a fact.
    Demonstrably false. “In Australia we went from 614 firearm deaths in 1990 to 274 in 2016. That’s a fall from 3.4 deaths per 100,000 people to 1 per 100,000 in 2016,”

    https://www.jcu.edu.au/news/releases...ent-gun-deaths

    This compared to the USA and its large gun-ownership with “10.6 deaths per 100,000 persons)" in 2013.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_vi..._United_States
    “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

  7. #145
    Evolution is God's ID rogue06's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tassman View Post

    Demonstrably false. “In Australia we went from 614 firearm deaths in 1990 to 274 in 2016. That’s a fall from 3.4 deaths per 100,000 people to 1 per 100,000 in 2016,”

    https://www.jcu.edu.au/news/releases...ent-gun-deaths

    This compared to the USA and its large gun-ownership with “10.6 deaths per 100,000 persons)" in 2013.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_vi..._United_States
    MM was very specifically talking about the overall homicide rate not having changed. Thank you for illustrating what I said earlier:

    Quote Originally Posted by rogue06 View Post
    All they care about is that those being killed aren't dying by gun violence. They don't seem to be concerned about those killed by other means. Apparently it makes them less dead or something.

    I'm always still in trouble again

    "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" -- starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)

  8. #146
    tWebber Tassman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rogue06 View Post
    MM was very specifically talking about the overall homicide rate not having changed. Thank you for illustrating what I said earlier:
    A point not worth making because MM excluded the “outlier”, as he called it, of the Port Arthur massacre and with it the potential for further mass shootings.

    “In Australia we went from 614 firearm deaths in 1990 to 274 in 2016. That’s a fall from 3.4 deaths per 100,000 people to 1 per 100,000 in 2016,” he said.

    Dr Franklin said the Australian National Firearms Agreement, enacted following the murder of 35 people in Tasmania in 1996 by a lone gunman armed with high-powered weapons, has been closely linked with declines in firearm deaths in Australia.

    “We’ve seen a decline particularly in firearm suicides and an absence of mass shootings. It’s a pattern we see in South Africa and Brazil, with tougher gun laws leading to a fall in firearm deaths in those places too,” he said.

    https://www.jcu.edu.au/news/releases...ent-gun-deaths

    ALL murders are concerning. But the absence of potential mass shootings is a good thing not a bad thing. You ought to try it in the USA, given your dismal record. It works for us.
    “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

  9. #147
    tWebber Mountain Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rogue06 View Post
    MM was very specifically talking about the overall homicide rate not having changed. Thank you for illustrating what I said earlier:
    His argument at this point is the equivalent of putting his fingers in his ears and saying, "La la la ... I can't hear you!"
    Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
    But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
    Than a fool in the eyes of God


    From "Fools Gold" by Petra

  10. #148
    See, the Thing is... Cow Poke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Man View Post
    His argument at this point is the equivalent of putting his fingers in his ears and saying, "La la la ... I can't hear you!"
    And then, repeating the same stuff over and over and over, thinking that makes his 'points' more truerererer.
    Every problem is the result of a previous solution.

  11. #149
    tWebber Starlight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rogue06 View Post
    To someone who repeatedly insisted that the communist dictator Joseph Stalin was a right winger, virtually everyone is "very right-wing" in his eyes.
    LOL, it's amusing how stuck on this idea you are, and how you just can't get over it, and how wrong you are.

    I don't think virtually everyone is a right winger. Not at all. There are plenty of left-wing people and groups. I'm left wing. The party I vote for is left wing. Bernie Sanders is left-wing. Jeremy Corbin is left wing. The Democratic Socialists of America are left wing etc. There are loads of left-wingers in the world, and plenty of posters on this forum who are left-wing. The left-wing right-wing terminology wouldn't even make sense if there were no left-wingers.

    My point about Stalin, that you insist on misinterpreting, presumably because your brain is slightly smaller than a peanut, was that his government was unusual and doesn't fall neatly onto the normal simplified left-right political spectrum and isn't easily classified. His government was very unusual in very many ways, and had many different aspects some of which that would normally be classified as left wing (e.g. some of how they did economics) and some aspects that would normally be classified as right-wing (e.g. their authoritarian/dictatorial approach). My view is that Stalin's government doesn't fit neatly onto the usual left-right political spectrum so I think calling it 'left-wing' as many people do is unhelpful and inaccurate. I understand you can't mentally cope with that idea because you grew up being told that the evil commies were 'left-wing' and so that is the yard-stick you use to measure the term 'left-wing', so when someone suggests to you that maybe that was mostly silly US cold-war propaganda and that they weren't exactly 'left-wing' in reality, you can't really cope with the idea, because you're not very good at thinking.

    Actually, the terms 'left' and 'right' wing in politics go back to the 18th century, and far predate Stalin. Stalin's government is not at all the yardstick for what is or isn't left-wing. Stalin's government was completely novel in the history of politics, and had aspects that were 'left' and aspects that were 'right' and in general doesn't really fall anywhere on the older left-right spectrum. Libertarianism is another viewpoint that doesn't fall on the traditional linear left-right spectrum. This is why most political scientists today think a 2-d political spectrum is more useful for characterizing positions than the traditional 1-d left-right line. A 2-d spectrum adds an extra dimension perpendicular to the traditional left-right axis, so allows them to chart communism and libertarianism in a meaningful way.

    And that, is quite, quite different, to saying I don't think anyone's a left winger which is something I would never say or think. You make yourself look like an idiot by pretending that's what I think. Left wing has been a meaningful term in politics for several centuries and usefully describes lots of people and groups.
    Last edited by Starlight; 07-17-2019 at 05:39 AM.

  12. #150
    See, the Thing is... Cow Poke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Starlight View Post
    My point about Stalin, that you insist on misinterpreting, presumably because your brain is slightly smaller than a peanut...
    I have Rogue's brain in a jar on my bookshelf - it's at LEAST as big as a ping pong ball.
    Every problem is the result of a previous solution.

  13. Amen Raphael amen'd this post.

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