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Thread: Noncompliance Kneecaps New Zealand's Gun Control Scheme

  1. #31
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by rogue06 View Post
    It is always a plus to know what you are arguing about.
    Well, I was also aiming for semi-automatics that could easily be converted into automatic weapons. So, if you agreed that the first is hard to acquire, then the second too should be hard to acquire. I suspect that the second is actually quite easy to do - with the whole Nevada attack. So, that was my aim with the good.

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  3. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparko View Post
    AR-15s are not "automatic weapons" they are semi-automatic. You don't seem to know the difference, which makes your opinion regarding guns less than useful in a gun control debate. An AR-15 is operationally no different than any hunting rifle, it just looks scarier.

    And just for your info:
    An Automatic weapon would be one where when you hold down the trigger, it just keeps shooting - a machine gun for example. A semi-auto requires you to press the trigger for each shot.
    I know the difference in so far as it is not hard to convert a semi-automatic into something similar to automatic. Or at least, sufficiently automatic to give rise to its use in mass shootings.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sparko View Post
    Most people own guns for sport and self-protection. Protection against muggers, burglars, home invaders, and so on.
    Although it significantly raises the stakes, and the risks involved.

    But I know, I have no problem with that sentiment - it is not a cultural thing where I am from, so I see it as strange that anyone would do so, however, I understand that some people grow up with a different culture. I live somewhere where I see no reason to even have a gun for self-defence. I personally do not believe that it would make the world safer if everyone had guns on them all the time, it just creates an atmosphere of distrust and risk if someone said something about someone and they got angry, etc.

  4. #33
    Evolution is God's ID rogue06's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zara View Post
    Well, I was also aiming for semi-automatics that could easily be converted into automatic weapons. So, if you agreed that the first is hard to acquire, then the second too should be hard to acquire. I suspect that the second is actually quite easy to do - with the whole Nevada attack. So, that was my aim with the good.
    It's as easy to manufacture a fully automatic firearm from scratch[1] as it is to convert a firearm to automatic[2]. So I guess we should just ban metallurgy altogether.







    1. As tribal Afghans have been doing in mountain villages for generations using low-tech techniques such as the lost wax casting method.


    2. Even bolt actions and revolvers can be made to fire fully automatic if you know how. And it is mind-numbingly easy to do.
    Last edited by rogue06; 07-09-2019 at 06:30 AM.

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  5. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by rogue06 View Post
    It's as easy to manufacture a fully automatic firearm from scratch[1] as it is to convert a firearm to automatic[2]. So I guess we should just ban metallurgy altogether.
    It seems to me that acquiring a gun of sufficient quality to use in a terrorist attack in Europe is not that easy, but I could be wrong.

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    Troll Magnet Sparko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zara View Post
    I know the difference in so far as it is not hard to convert a semi-automatic into something similar to automatic. Or at least, sufficiently automatic to give rise to its use in mass shootings.
    bump stocks? Then make those illegal. Not the guns. Other than that you need a machine shop and some skill to make a semi-auto into a full auto. And the result would likely blow up in your face after a few shots.


    Although it significantly raises the stakes, and the risks involved.
    What? The risks and stakes of NOT having a gun when you are being beaten, robbed or invaded in your home are a lot higher than if you have a gun to defend yourself with.

    But I know, I have no problem with that sentiment - it is not a cultural thing where I am from, so I see it as strange that anyone would do so, however, I understand that some people grow up with a different culture. I live somewhere where I see no reason to even have a gun for self-defence. I personally do not believe that it would make the world safer if everyone had guns on them all the time, it just creates an atmosphere of distrust and risk if someone said something about someone and they got angry, etc.
    You don't have to carry a gun or even like guns, but what gives you the right to tell others what they can and can't do? 99.99% of gun owners will never use their guns offensively or for a crime. Banning guns because a small minority misuses them would be like banning cars because some people drive drunk and kill people. You are punishing the innocent.

    And criminals will get guns if they want them. Or now they can even 3D print them. So banning guns will only take them away from lawful owners.

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  9. #36
    tWebber Mountain Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparko View Post
    bump stocks? Then make those illegal.
    Yeah, even a leather belt could be used as a "bump stock".
    Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
    But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
    Than a fool in the eyes of God


    From "Fools Gold" by Petra

  10. #37
    Evolution is God's ID rogue06's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zara View Post
    It seems to me that acquiring a gun of sufficient quality to use in a terrorist attack in Europe is not that easy, but I could be wrong.
    The last I checked France has some very stringent gun control laws in effect which did nothing to deter the mass shootings in Paris in 2015 where 137 were killed and 352 wounded.

    And back in April of 2002, despite some of the toughest gun control laws in the western world, Germany[1] experienced a mass shooting at the Johann Gutenberg secondary school in Erfurt, Germany (part of the former East Germany) where 17 were killed (including 12 teachers) and 6 wounded before the killer, who was expelled from the school shot himself, committing suicide. Anti-gun groups quickly tried to put the blame on illegal gun smuggling flooding Europe with weapons out of the Balkans region, but this was not the case. The 19-year-old shooter patiently applied for his permit (in a country where the waiting period is commonly a year long) and obtained his weapons legally before he went on his revenge-fueled murder rampage.

    So of course German tightened their already strict gun control laws even more after Erfurt, such as raising the legal age for owning firearms from 18 to 21. But that didn't stop a 17 year old under psychiatric care from going to Albertville Secondary School in Winnenden, a town near Stuttgart and killing 16, almost exclusively girls and female teachers, at his former school.

    The point is even with the strictest laws in place we still see these sort of shootings. And the very fact that prison guards at even some of the toughest penitentiaries regularly confiscate firearms from the inmates tends to demonstrate that if someone really wants a gun they can get one even in the face of the most stringent of prohibitions.




    1. At the time only 15,000 private citizens are allowed to own a firearm out of a population of 80,000,000 – 1 in 5333.3 or less than 0.0002% of Germans

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  11. #38
    Troll Magnet Sparko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Man View Post
    Yeah, even a leather belt could be used as a "bump stock".
    A good shooter can shoot a revolver as fast as an auto if he practices enough.


  12. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparko View Post
    bump stocks? Then make those illegal. Not the guns. Other than that you need a machine shop and some skill to make a semi-auto into a full auto. And the result would likely blow up in your face after a few shots.
    Then I made a mistake about the difference between the weapon types. My limit was the type of weapon that can result in a Christchurch style mass shooting. I understood that he had in someway violated the law, with modifications to the weapon, but that that violation was so easy that the distinction between two weapons classes (for the semi-automatic) for license holders was effectively irrelevant. Banning the whole weapon was seen as the only way to prevent future incidents of a similar type by a weapon for a layman.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sparko View Post
    What? The risks and stakes of NOT having a gun when you are being beaten, robbed or invaded in your home are a lot higher than if you have a gun to defend yourself with.
    The risks (for my status) are almost zero here for all of those crimes. However, I continue to find it hard to imagine myself safer with a gun if both parties are armed. Most crime here does not involve a firearm.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sparko View Post
    You don't have to carry a gun or even like guns, but what gives you the right to tell others what they can and can't do? 99.99% of gun owners will never use their guns offensively or for a crime. Banning guns because a small minority misuses them would be like banning cars because some people drive drunk and kill people. You are punishing the innocent.

    And criminals will get guns if they want them. Or now they can even 3D print them. So banning guns will only take them away from lawful owners.
    Again, not all guns - just the type used in mass shooting like in Christchurch. Regarding the situation, I know plenty of people that are ok with the changes (although they have reservations), that enjoy hunting etc, while one is pissed because they are an enthusiast.

    I assume we agree that people shouldn't have access to RPGs or F35s as an extreme example. This is just reducing the boundary a bit further on weapons - in a context that might not be applicable elsewhere.

    I know most people are law abiding.

    3D printing is an interesting problem.

  13. #40
    Evolution is God's ID rogue06's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparko View Post
    A good shooter can shoot a revolver as fast as an auto if he practices enough.

    Firing fast and firing accurately are two different things as those who "fanned" their single-shot revolvers back in the old days found out. Bump stocks also tend to destroy the ability to aim as well -- although that doesn't much matter if you're firing into a packed crowd.

    I'm always still in trouble again

    "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
    "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

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