Noncompliance Kneecaps New Zealand's Gun Control Scheme

[lilpixieofterror]

Was your current TV made by someone who can legally make TVs? How hard was it for you to buy your TV?

Not difficult, but the point is functionality often increases, while prices decrease or stay the same.

[Adrift]

I think you’d have better luck draining the ocean with an eye dropper. It’s a far better use of time to focus on the causes of violence than attempting to regulate away instruments used to carry it out.

To be clear, my argument isn't that we should stop focusing on causes of violence in order to remove guns. I think it's possible to do both.

Because giving people something to lose often works as a decent deters some from trying.

I'm not sure I'm parsing this reply. I suppose my answer would be "you’d have better luck draining the ocean with an eye dropper" than preventing the cause of violent crime, but for whatever reason we think it's worth doing.

[Adrift]

I never said I need guns to defend against people with guns. I want a gun to defend myself against anyone attacking me or breaking into my house, whether they have a gun, a knife, or a baseball bat.

Looks like it's in the list. Most people typically consider a gun a bigger threat than a person with a knife or baseball bat (not to say they aren't a threat, but less so, and one a gun may not be necessary to stop).

In fact, I would have a much better chance against them if they had a bat or knife. I have no problem with having an "unfair" advantage. I am all for getting the guns out of the hands of career criminals while keeping them in the hands of law abiding citizens.

As you've pointed out, it's completely hopeless to take them out of the hands of career criminals. Also, plenty of people who commit homicide (and suicide) were once law abiding citizens. The line between law abiding citizen and killer is just a bullet away.

[Adrift]

Not difficult, but the point is functionality often increases, while prices decrease or stay the same.

I don't think the black market for 3D printed and/or Lost Wax method guns in a hypothetical world where guns are banned would be as easy and cheap as buying a modern legal TV at your local Walmart or Amazon. I feel your argument is a bit apples and oranges, but eh, who knows. Not like it's ever going to happen.

[Sparko]

Looks like it's in the list. Most people typically consider a gun a bigger threat than a person with a knife or baseball bat (not to say they aren't a threat, but less so, and one a gun may not be necessary to stop).



As you've pointed out, it's completely hopeless to take them out of the hands of career criminals. Also, plenty of people who commit homicide (and suicide) were once law abiding citizens. The line between law abiding citizen and killer is just a bullet away.

The line between law abiding citizen and criminal is just one shot of whiskey away, but we don't ban cars because drunks and criminals use them to kill people.

[Sparko]

I don't think the black market for 3D printed and/or Lost Wax method guns in a hypothetical world where guns are banned would be as easy and cheap as buying a modern legal TV at your local Walmart or Amazon. I feel your argument is a bit apples and oranges, but eh, who knows. Not like it's ever going to happen.

well unless you could ban guns everywhere, including the manufacture of them (which would be difficult since the military would still want them) - there will always be a way to get a gun illegally on the black market.

[Adrift]

well unless you could ban guns everywhere, including the manufacture of them (which would be difficult since the military would still want them) - there will always be a way to get a gun illegally on the black market.

Nah. You don't really have to go that far. Plenty of 1st world nations have banned guns, and while, yeah, you can get them if you have enough money and connections, it's relatively difficult.

[Adrift]

The line between law abiding citizen and criminal is just one shot of whiskey away, but we don't ban cars because drunks and criminals use them to kill people.

Cars are a necessary evil with the lack of public transit in the US. Guns, I think we could probably live without.

[Raphael]

In Nicky Cruz's autobiography, Run Baby, Run he mentions that his gang, The Mau Mau's, were making "zip guns" from a car antenna and a door handle for the firing mechanism to sell to other gangs. They didn't care that they were as unsafe for the shooter as the person being shot at, or had poor aim, just that they could fire a bullet

[Sparko]

Nah. You don't really have to go that far. Plenty of 1st world nations have banned guns, and while, yeah, you can get them if you have enough money and connections, it's relatively difficult.

Well Australia is an island so...

[Sparko]

Cars are a necessary evil with the lack of public transit in the US. Guns, I think we could probably live without.

Maybe you can. Others would use the same argument you just did for cars.

[Adrift]

Maybe you can. Others would use the same argument you just did for cars.

They need a gun for public transit?

[rogue06]

I have a feeling that your average gang-banger looking to mow down a rival, or your average jealous boyfriend out to kill his girlfriend is not going to take the time to lost-wax cast a gun and go on a spree. And if this does become a real cottage industry, I'm sure we have the government resources to bust them up. It's not like it'd be that easy to get away with. Gangbangers and the like seem unlikely to be the type of people who take great care of their weapons anyways, but I could be wrong about that.

First, most gang bangers don't bother going through legal channels to obtain firearms now so I don't think this would prove much of a barrier.

No. But there will be plenty of less than scrupulous folks who would be more than happy to help supply a burgeoning black market. And hey, if one of the members had any skills as a machinist, the gang might make him their gun maker (gangs are pretty inventive in this way).

Third, there are a number of gang members who are former military and could be put in charge of this just like the gangs now closely, um... police members about properly showing their colors and insignia. Again, when it comes to this sort of thing the gangs can be pretty sophisticated. It isn't just a hand full of juvenile delinquents like West Side Story.

[Adrift]

First, most gang bangers don't bother going through legal channels to obtain firearms now so I don't think this would prove much of a barrier.

Not sure I understand the point. I agree that they don't always go through legal channels.

No. But there will be plenty of less than scrupulous folks who would be more than happy to help supply a burgeoning black market. And hey, if one of the members had any skills as a machinist, the gang might make him their gun maker (gangs are pretty inventive in this way).

MS-13 dude chillin in his crib machining guns and bullets all day seems unlikely to me. I've replied this hypothetical already in this thread though. Simply direct agency towards nailing these street machinists. The whole idea that the black market would be crawling with home-brew guns just strikes me as grasping at straws.

Third, there are a number of gang members who are former military and could be put in charge of this just like the gangs now closely, um... police members about properly showing their colors and insignia. Again, when it comes to this sort of thing the gangs can be pretty sophisticated. It isn't just a hand full of juvenile delinquents like West Side Story.

I don't think so, but at any rate, see my previous replies to this scenario.

[rogue06]

I don't think the black market for 3D printed and/or Lost Wax method guns in a hypothetical world where guns are banned would be as easy and cheap as buying a modern legal TV at your local Walmart or Amazon. I feel your argument is a bit apples and oranges, but eh, who knows. Not like it's ever going to happen.

Those methods are just two examples (one high tech the other low) of how easy it is to make firearms. Suddenly banning the sale and or possession of firearms would spark an interest in all manner of ways to manufacture them. I mean, how many hillbillies had any real interest in making moonshine (except maybe enough for self consumption) until after Prohibition?