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Noncompliance Kneecaps New Zealand's Gun Control Scheme

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  • Originally posted by Starlight View Post
    They're getting paid based on the condition the gun is in, so if they turn in junk, they get a junk price. Nobody has a problem with them using the money to buy more guns, as the point isn't to get rid of guns in general. It's simply to get rid of the more dangerous types of guns that are most easily used in massacres. Guns used for hunting and on farms will remain a vibrant part of the culture here. Unlike the US, the idea of guns for self-defense has never been legal here and isn't part of the culture, and is regarded by most here as an utterly moronic idea that would make everyone far less safe.
    So, if China attacks New Zealand, the people wouldn't use their guns for self-defense? They would just tell the Chinese soldiers that the guns are just for hunting and sport?

    Or if some crazy guy starts shooting at kids at school, the people with guns would not feel it proper to stop the shooter -- if possible -- even before the police arrive?

    Comment


    • Originally posted by mikewhitney View Post
      So, if China attacks New Zealand, the people wouldn't use their guns for self-defense?
      You seem to be confusing personal self-defense against criminals with patriotic defense of the country.

      But let's play along... Like most other countries we have a military, and allies. Presumably you are talking about some sort of war of invasion? If so, it would be a major conflict since our military would fight, and close allies like Australia would certainly fight with us, and probably our long term allies such as the US and the UK etc would fight with us too. And since NZ wouldn't be among China's top-10 list of targets for conquering, I assume in any scenario where China has invaded New Zealand, it has also invaded pretty much the entire region of Asia, so we would be talking WWII levels of conquest and international involvement or more. The Japanese in WWII didn't quite make it as far as Australia and New Zealand. No foreign invaders have ever set foot on NZ soil or ever dropped any bombs here (unless you count original European colonization), so you are talking about an event that would be totally unprecedented in history.

      My grandmother occasionally tells me what her schoolteacher said to her during WWII when it looked possible the Japanese would invade Australia and NZ. The advice given was to the effect, "if they have made it past our military and turn up here and you personally interact with them, go welcome them with biscuits and tea, there's nothing else you can do."

      So, if you're asking me to speculate as to what might happen if there's an unprecedented event in history in which NZ is invaded, the military of us and our allies defeated, and the country occupied by foreign forces. Who knows how such a course of events might affect the culture and psyche of people here? I presume different people would respond in different ways. Presumably some people would respond like my grandmother's schoolteacher, feeling there was nothing they could do. Presumably some others would respond like the French Resistance did and act as armed terrorist resistance. I suspect, but am speculating wildly here, that the majority response would be non-violent protests, whether it be mass protest marches, or simple passive-aggressive non-cooperation at the individual level.

      Or if some crazy guy starts shooting at kids at school, the people with guns would not feel it proper to stop the shooter -- if possible -- even before the police arrive?
      There hasn't been a mass school shooting here for 95 years. Probably primarily because kids don't have ready access to guns here. We tend to think Americans are crazy because they have such ready access to guns for everyone and that this causes school shootings. So, again, you're asking hypotheticals about scenarios that just don't occur here. If there were guns on the school premises ready to 'defend' with, that makes a mass school shooting more likely, not less, because it means that there are guns on the premises, which means that someone could use those guns to do a mass shooting with (e.g. if a kid steals the gun to use it, or the gun owner goes crazy and does the massacre themselves etc). So your dumb solution to an almost negligible risk, is to make the risk much more likely to occur by introducing guns to the situation in the name of reducing the risk? That's bonkers.
      "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
      "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
      "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Starlight View Post
        You seem to be confusing personal self-defense against criminals with patriotic defense of the country.

        But let's play along... Like most other countries we have a military, and allies. Presumably you are talking about some sort of war of invasion? If so, it would be a major conflict since our military would fight, and close allies like Australia would certainly fight with us, and probably our long term allies such as the US and the UK etc would fight with us too. And since NZ wouldn't be among China's top-10 list of targets for conquering, I assume in any scenario where China has invaded New Zealand, it has also invaded pretty much the entire region of Asia, so we would be talking WWII levels of conquest and international involvement or more. The Japanese in WWII didn't quite make it as far as Australia and New Zealand. No foreign invaders have ever set foot on NZ soil or ever dropped any bombs here (unless you count original European colonization), so you are talking about an event that would be totally unprecedented in history.

        My grandmother occasionally tells me what her schoolteacher said to her during WWII when it looked possible the Japanese would invade Australia and NZ. The advice given was to the effect, "if they have made it past our military and turn up here and you personally interact with them, go welcome them with biscuits and tea, there's nothing else you can do."

        So, if you're asking me to speculate as to what might happen if there's an unprecedented event in history in which NZ is invaded, the military of us and our allies defeated, and the country occupied by foreign forces. Who knows how such a course of events might affect the culture and psyche of people here? I presume different people would respond in different ways. Presumably some people would respond like my grandmother's schoolteacher, feeling there was nothing they could do. Presumably some others would respond like the French Resistance did and act as armed terrorist resistance. I suspect, but am speculating wildly here, that the majority response would be non-violent protests, whether it be mass protest marches, or simple passive-aggressive non-cooperation at the individual level.

        There hasn't been a mass school shooting here for 95 years. Probably primarily because kids don't have ready access to guns here. We tend to think Americans are crazy because they have such ready access to guns for everyone and that this causes school shootings. So, again, you're asking hypotheticals about scenarios that just don't occur here. If there were guns on the school premises ready to 'defend' with, that makes a mass school shooting more likely, not less, because it means that there are guns on the premises, which means that someone could use those guns to do a mass shooting with (e.g. if a kid steals the gun to use it, or the gun owner goes crazy and does the massacre themselves etc). So your dumb solution to an almost negligible risk, is to make the risk much more likely to occur by introducing guns to the situation in the name of reducing the risk? That's bonkers.
        Does the Aramoana massacre of 1990 not qualify as a mass shooting?

        Comment


        • Originally posted by mikewhitney View Post
          Does the Aramoana massacre of 1990 not qualify as a mass shooting?
          Of course it does. It wasn't a school shooting.
          "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
          "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
          "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
            Look Kat the list and count the number from 1973 to 1993, and then from 1993 to 2013.

            https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List...s_in_Australia

            It's around 15 on each side. Plus another 12 since 2014. That's massacres alone. In terms of overall violent crime, including homicides, Australia is just as dangerous as ever, and suicide rates are unchecked.
            Who are you trying to kid? There has been nothing to equal the Port Arthur massacre on 28 April 1996, i.e. 35 deaths and 24 injuries. This was a spree shooting by Martin Bryant and resulted in instigating the successful Australian gun laws which are now, very sensibly, being emulated by NZ following its horrific massacre.

            OTOH is the appalling number of deaths resulting from firearms in gun-happy USA. "Gun violence in the United States results in tens of thousands of deaths and injuries annually. In 2013, there were 73,505 nonfatal firearm injuries (23.2 injuries per 100,000 persons), and 33,636 deaths due to "injury by firearms" (10.6 deaths per 100,000 persons)".

            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_vi..._United_States
            “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Tassmoron View Post
              Who are you trying to kid? There has been nothing to equal the Port Arthur massacre on 28 April 1996, i.e. 35 deaths and 24 injuries..
              Yes. That is the the outlier in your country. But if you look at the 30-years before and the 30-years after, the death toll from mass killings is roughly same, and your rates of violent crime, homicide, and suicide are higher now than before the ban.

              So on balance, banning guns did nothing at all to improve peace and safety in Australia. That's a fact.
              Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
              But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
              Than a fool in the eyes of God


              From "Fools Gold" by Petra

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                Yes. That is the the outlier in your country. But if you look at the 30-years before and the 30-years after, the death toll from mass killings is roughly same, and your rates of violent crime, homicide, and suicide are higher now than before the ban.

                So on balance, banning guns did nothing at all to improve peace and safety in Australia. That's a fact.
                All they care about is that those being killed aren't dying by gun violence. They don't seem to be concerned about those killed by other means. Apparently it makes them less dead or something.

                I'm always still in trouble again

                "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                Comment


                • For some reason there doesn't seem to be anything said about how successful the buyback event that the government had was. I have a sneaking suspicion that if it went as hoped there would be a lot of articles proclaiming that.

                  I'm always still in trouble again

                  "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                  "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                  "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                    For some reason there doesn't seem to be anything said about how successful the buyback event that the government had was. I have a sneaking suspicion that if it went as hoped there would be a lot of articles proclaiming that.
                    I mean, I think I already linked this "Government's first gun buy-back event declared success", but maybe you couldn't read? Given it's only the first of 258 currently scheduled events around the country, there's only so much success that can be declared before the other scheduled buy-back events over the next 3 months have happened.

                    I get you spent the thread declaring the failure of the gun buy-back before even the first buy-back event had been held, but even the media here, useless as it is, is a bit more evidence-based than you so does tend to prefer to wait until after events have occurred before rating their outcomes.
                    "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
                    "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
                    "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Starlight View Post
                      I mean, I think I already linked this "Government's first gun buy-back event declared success", but maybe you couldn't read? Given it's only the first of 258 currently scheduled events around the country, there's only so much success that can be declared before the other scheduled buy-back events over the next 3 months have happened.

                      I get you spent the thread declaring the failure of the gun buy-back before even the first buy-back event had been held, but even the media here, useless as it is, is a bit more evidence-based than you so afterwards does tend to prefer to wait until after events have occurred before rating their outcomes.
                      Ahh, a smashing success. 169 owners turned in their firearms.

                      Excuse me a second...

                      GIF LOL.gif


                      Well, that explains the sudden lack of coverage by the MSM. With success like that no wonder that the MSM is trying to bury this fiasco down some memory hole.
                      Last edited by rogue06; 07-16-2019, 06:49 AM.

                      I'm always still in trouble again

                      "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                      "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                      "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                      Comment


                      • Starlight. The bad part of town is where all the liberals and socialists hang out - in crack houses.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                          Ahh, a smashing success. 169 owners turned in their firearms.
                          The same media outlet wrote several different versions of the same article which it released over the course of the weekend as the buyback progressed. I think the 169 number was from halfway through the first day. Here's a later one, Government's first gun buy-back scheme secures banned weapons worth $1 million, which cites the number of guns collected as "over 500". So they seem about on track for their estimate of buying back $200m worth of weapons over the course of 258 such buy-back events over the next 3 months.

                          no wonder that the MSM is trying to bury this fiasco down some memory hole.
                          The media here is very right-wing for the most part, and numerous people in the media hate the current center/left government. If there's anything bad to report about what the government's doing, they will.
                          "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
                          "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
                          "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Starlight View Post
                            The media here is very right-wing for the most part, and numerous people in the media hate the current center/left government. If there's anything bad to report about what the government's doing, they will.
                            So, basically an exact opposite of the US.
                            The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Starlight View Post
                              The same media outlet wrote several different versions of the same article which it released over the course of the weekend as the buyback progressed. I think the 169 number was from halfway through the first day. Here's a later one, Government's first gun buy-back scheme secures banned weapons worth $1 million, which cites the number of guns collected as "over 500". So they seem about on track for their estimate of buying back $200m worth of weapons over the course of 258 such buy-back events over the next 3 months.
                              The "over 500" is guns and accessories. and less than 500 if you can do maths.
                              https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/...n-christchurch
                              Source: Radio NZ

                              Police said 169 firearms owners handed in a total of 224 prohibited firearms, and 217 parts and accessories, with $433,682 compensated.

                              © Copyright Original Source



                              Originally posted by Starlight View Post
                              The media here is very right-wing for the most part, and numerous people in the media hate the current center/left government. If there's anything bad to report about what the government's doing, they will.
                              You really completely delusional about what is left and right of politics. The only right wing journalist is Mike Hosking.
                              The majority of rest are all left to very left liberals.
                              Be watchful, stand firm in the faith, act like men, be strong.
                              1 Corinthians 16:13

                              "...he [Doherty] is no historian and he is not even conversant with the historical discussions of the very matters he wants to pontificate on."
                              -Ben Witherington III

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                                So, basically an exact opposite of the US.
                                You have a media that's quite polarized between the two major parties. Obviously, your most popular outlet, Fox, is extremely right-wing.

                                But your media outlets that like the Democratic party and like its liberal social values (MSNBC, CNN, NYT, WaPo), tend to cosy up to the pro-establishment pro-centrist people within the party and while they quite like them being liberal on social issues, they tend to hate with a fiery passion those within the Democratic party who are at the economically left-wing end of it. It's becoming almost proverbial that these outlets would rather have the Dems field a centrist who loses to Republicans, than have them field an actual progressive who wins. These outlets are owned by billionaires and employ anchors who they pay millions to, they're quite happy to have the populace have some social freedoms because that costs them nothing, but one whiff of an impact on their own pocketbooks through raised taxes on the rich to help the middle class and poor and they can't run away fast enough.
                                "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
                                "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
                                "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

                                Comment

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