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Noncompliance Kneecaps New Zealand's Gun Control Scheme

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  • Originally posted by Adrift View Post
    I have a feeling that your average gang-banger looking to mow down a rival, or your average jealous boyfriend out to kill his girlfriend is not going to take the time to lost-wax cast a gun and go on a spree. And if this does become a real cottage industry, I'm sure we have the government resources to bust them up. It's not like it'd be that easy to get away with. Gangbangers and the like seem unlikely to be the type of people who take great care of their weapons anyways, but I could be wrong about that.
    Not to mention that many shootings (not necessarily mass shootings) happen impulsively and the removal of convenience would at least make the numbers go down somewhat. Jared Lee Loughner bought his ammunition at a Wal-Mart the morning of his shooting (at the second one he visited; the first one denied his sale because his behavior was suspicious). I find it odd that this argument is frequently trotted out, but I have seen few argue against measures to prevent bombs or bomb making material to be more readily available, since it is far easier to make a crude incendiary device than it is to print or cast a gun.
    "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

    Comment


    • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
      Yup. You'll be hearing about a machine shop or some garage-based operation getting busted like you used to here about stills being raided.
      As I've pointed out in previous discussions on the gun debate (seems we just circle the same points over and over again), prohibition did actually work. See Jack S. Blocker Jr.'s paper here: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1470475/

      Furthermore, most people who are pro-gun are also against the sale of hard drugs, and yet we could all just throw our hands up in the air and say "it doesn't work, just legalize them all," and yet, few outside of the far left would actually desire that. Sometimes we make the effort even if it seems insurmountable.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Adrift View Post
        Furthermore, most people who are pro-gun are also against the sale of hard drugs, and yet we could all just throw our hands up in the air and say "it doesn't work, just legalize them all," and yet, few outside of the far left would actually desire that. Sometimes we make the effort even if it seems insurmountable.
        Is this still the case? Admittedly my online bubble skews heavily conservative/libertarian based largely on hanging out here, but I've seen quite a bit of support for legalization of all drugs, accepting this logic in its full.

        Also, it depends on whether we refer to decriminalization or legalization. At one point, China in the late 19th century, ravaged by the opium epidemic, executed dealers but would not prosecute users. More and more, I see merit in this approach.
        "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Adrift View Post
          I mean, again, we cross that bridge when we get to it. Make blueprints illegal. Bust down machine shops, etc.
          We done crossed the bridge and got the T-shirt. It is just a matter of time to bring the cost down.

          But I seriously doubt they could ever make guns illegal in the USA. Too ingrained in our society.

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          • Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
            Is this still the case? Admittedly my online bubble skews heavily conservative/libertarian based largely on hanging out here, but I've seen quite a bit of support for legalization of all drugs, accepting this logic in its full.

            Also, it depends on whether we refer to decriminalization or legalization. At one point, China in the late 19th century, ravaged by the opium epidemic, executed dealers but would not prosecute users. More and more, I see merit in this approach.
            Yeah, I think it's still the case, but I haven't seen a survey on it or anything. I'm just going by anecdotal evidence.

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            • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
              We done crossed the bridge and got the T-shirt. It is just a matter of time to bring the cost down.
              I mean, not really. Gangbangers aren't printing up guns. School shooters aren't printing up guns. When actual villains start printing guns I'll take the issue seriously. That someone has done it doesn't mean it's a real issue just yet.

              Originally posted by Sparko View Post
              But I seriously doubt they could ever make guns illegal in the USA. Too ingrained in our society.
              Agreed unfortunately.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Adrift View Post
                "I say we cross that bridge when it becomes a real threat." The idea that we should throw our hands up in the air because of future possibilities seems a little silly to me. I always think it's strange that the same people (not necessarily people here, but people in general) who are against a total ban of guns because "people will find a way" tend not to have the same view about laws restricting/banning hard drugs.
                Tomorrow comes much quicker than we think. The genie is already out of the bottle and you’re not going to be able to shove it back in. The US likely had more guns, in private hands than citizens, and emerging technological innovation is making it even easier to get unregistered guns. Until Jesus returns, humans will never be able to regulate violence away.
                "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
                GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

                Comment


                • Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View Post
                  Tomorrow comes much quicker than we think. The genie is already out of the bottle and you’re not going to be able to shove it back in. The US likely had more guns, in private hands than citizens, and emerging technological innovation is making it even easier to get unregistered guns.
                  Like I said that doesn't mean we shouldn't make the attempt. "Sometimes we make the effort even if it seems insurmountable." I mean, I suppose the argument is moot for you anyways, since you don't want guns to be banned, even if they could be. I want guns to be banned, and I think it's worth the attempt.

                  Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View Post
                  Until Jesus returns, humans will never be able to regulate violence away.
                  True, but then, why enforce law at all?

                  Comment


                  • It seems backwards that all the momentum to ban guns results from high profile events. I totally get the emotional reaction to somebody shooting up a kindergarten classroom. These are the sociopaths who are likely to figure out a way no matter what. Maybe we should focus on the acts of violence that actually make up the bulk of the crime statistics as opposed to mass shooters, which are still relatively rare despite the narrative (domestic violence and gang violence, etc.).
                    "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Adrift View Post
                      I mean, not really. Gangbangers aren't printing up guns. School shooters aren't printing up guns. When actual villains start printing guns I'll take the issue seriously. That someone has done it doesn't mean it's a real issue just yet.
                      there is no need for it right now because they can get guns faster and cheaper in other ways. We were talking if they ever had a full out ban on guns. If that happened the technology is already here. Plus what rogue said. And once that happens the black market would once again be flooded with guns.


                      Agreed unfortunately.
                      To me, fortunately. I believe people should have the right to defend their lives and the lives of their loved ones. And guns are a good way to do that. They are also useful tools for hunting. Not everyone lives in a city. And they are good for sport. Shooting guns is fun.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Adrift View Post
                        I mean, not really. Gangbangers aren't printing up guns. School shooters aren't printing up guns. When actual villains start printing guns I'll take the issue seriously. That someone has done it doesn't mean it's a real issue just yet.
                        My first TV, I bought without my parents was a tube TV that was around 200 dollars. It wasn’t smart, it didn’t have multiple inputs, no HD, and it was heavy. I can buy a 50 inch smart TV, from Walmart, with tons more features and light enough that I can move it, for that price. As I said, tomorrow comes much quicker than we imagine.
                        "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
                        GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Adrift View Post
                          Like I said that doesn't mean we shouldn't make the attempt. "Sometimes we make the effort even if it seems insurmountable." I mean, I suppose the argument is moot for you anyways, since you don't want guns to be banned, even if they could be. I want guns to be banned, and I think it's worth the attempt.
                          I think you’d have better luck draining the ocean with an eye dropper. It’s a far better use of time to focus on the causes of violence than attempting to regulate away instruments used to carry it out.

                          True, but then, why enforce law at all?
                          Because giving people something to lose often works as a decent deters some from trying.
                          "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
                          GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                            there is no need for it right now because they can get guns faster and cheaper in other ways.
                            Exactly!

                            Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                            We were talking if they ever had a full out ban on guns. If that happened the technology is already here. Plus what rogue said. And once that happens the black market would once again be flooded with guns.
                            Again, I don't know about you, but in my hypothetical universe where guns in the US are banned, acquiring a gun that's been 3D printed would be substantially harder to acquire than a gun you can go to Walmart and buy. Again, it's an issue that can be crossed once we get to it. Whether it means allotting government resources to busting up gun suppliers or whathaveyou, the point is that you make guns harder to obtain, even it's not possible to completely remove them.

                            Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                            To me, fortunately. I believe people should have the right to defend their lives and the lives of their loved ones. And guns are a good way to do that. They are also useful tools for hunting. Not everyone lives in a city. And they are good for sport. Shooting guns is fun.
                            I think the argument that we need guns to defend our lives from people with guns just ends in a bizarre feedback loop. "I need a gun, because he's got a gun, he's got a gun, because I need a gun, I need a gun because he's got a gun..." Also, I realize shooting is fun. I was in the military and shot my fair share, and my brother hunts, and I've shot his guns a few times on his property. I still think the risk outweighs the fun aspect.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View Post
                              My first TV, I bought without my parents was a tube TV that was around 200 dollars. It wasn’t smart, it didn’t have multiple inputs, no HD, and it was heavy. I can buy a 50 inch smart TV, from Walmart, with tons more features and light enough that I can move it, for that price. As I said, tomorrow comes much quicker than we imagine.
                              Was your current TV made by someone who can legally make TVs? How hard was it for you to buy your TV?

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Adrift View Post
                                Exactly!



                                Again, I don't know about you, but in my hypothetical universe where guns in the US are banned, acquiring a gun that's been 3D printed would be substantially harder to acquire than a gun you can go to Walmart and buy. Again, it's an issue that can be crossed once we get to it. Whether it means allotting government resources to busting up gun suppliers or whathaveyou, the point is that you make guns harder to obtain, even it's not possible to completely remove them.



                                I think the argument that we need guns to defend our lives from people with guns just ends in a bizarre feedback loop. "I need a gun, because he's got a gun, he's got a gun, because I need a gun, I need a gun because he's got a gun..." Also, I realize shooting is fun. I was in the military and shot my fair share, and my brother hunts, and I've shot his guns a few times on his property. I still think the risk outweighs the fun aspect.
                                I never said I need guns to defend against people with guns. I want a gun to defend myself against anyone attacking me or breaking into my house, whether they have a gun, a knife, or a baseball bat. In fact, I would have a much better chance against them if they had a bat or knife. I have no problem with having an "unfair" advantage. I am all for getting the guns out of the hands of career criminals while keeping them in the hands of law abiding citizens.

                                Comment

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