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Noncompliance Kneecaps New Zealand's Gun Control Scheme

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  • Noncompliance Kneecaps New Zealand's Gun Control Scheme

    Noncompliance Kneecaps New Zealand's Gun Control Scheme

    The Kiwis are rebelling?

    Once again, responding to a horrendous crime by inflicting knee-jerk, authoritarian restrictions on innocent people proves to be an ineffective means of convincing people to obey. Specifically, New Zealand's government—which also stepped up censorship and domestic surveillance after bloody attacks on two Christchurch mosques earlier this year—is running into stiff resistance to new gun rules from firearms owners who are slow to surrender now-prohibited weapons and will probably never turn them in.

    Officials should have seen it coming.

    "Police are anticipating a number of people with banned firearms in their possession won't surrender them," Stuff reported at the end of May, based on internal government documents.

    As of last week, only around 700 weapons had been turned over. There are an estimated 1.5 million guns—with an unknown number subject to the new prohibition on semiautomatic firearms—in the country overall.

    Traditionally relaxed in its approach to firearms regulation, and enjoying a low crime rate, New Zealand has no firearms registration rule. That means authorities have no easy way of knowing what guns are in circulation or who owns them.

    "These weapons are unlikely to be confiscated by police because they don't know of their existence," Philippa Yasbek of Gun Control NZ admitted. "These will become black-market weapons if their owners choose not to comply with the law and become criminals instead."

    Yasbek's organization advocates registering all guns in private hands. But that won't help with gathering guns already in the possession of owners appalled by the government's attack on the rights of innocent people—government attacks, it's worth noting, that come in response to the crimes of one man who explicitly anticipated just such a response.

    "I chose firearms for the affect it would have on social discourse," the killer wrote in a document he released to explain his crimes. "The gun owners of New Zealand are a beaten, miserable bunch of baby boomers, who have long since given up the fight. When was the last time they won increased rights? Their loss was inevitable. I just accelerated things a bit."

    Politicians fulfilled the murderer's predictions with panic-driven legislation.

    That gun owners would, in large numbers, defy restrictions should have been anticipated by anybody who knows the history of government attempts to disarm their subjects—or who just glanced across the Tasman Sea to Australia.
    The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

  • #2
    This is Exhibit A in why mass gun confiscation simply isn't going to happen in the US. It didn't work there, where ownership rates are lower and the gun culture that exists in the US doesn't exist. Even if some future government tried it... good luck going anywhere with it.
    "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

    Comment


    • #3
      A good example of why we don't want gun registration in the USA.

      Wow, 700 out of 1.5 Million? It's almost as if New Zealanders don't agree with their government or something.

      Hopefully NZ will take notice of the mass objection and repeal their idiotic ban.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Sparko View Post
        A good example of why we don't want gun registration in the USA.

        Wow, 700 out of 1.5 Million? It's almost as if New Zealanders don't agree with their government or something.

        Hopefully NZ will take notice of the mass objection and repeal their idiotic ban.
        I wonder how starlight is taking the news that his country is chock-full of crazed right-wing gun nuts.

        I'm always still in trouble again

        "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
        "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
        "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

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        • #5
          Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
          I wonder how starlight is taking the news that his country is chock-full of crazed right-wing gun nuts.
          Not through surprise, I'm sure. If you're that far to the left, everybody is right wing.
          "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
            Not through surprise, I'm sure. If you're that far to the left, everybody is right wing.
            Yeah when you call Joseph Stalin a right-winger and then double and triple down trying to defend it

            I'm always still in trouble again

            "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
            "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
            "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
              I wonder how starlight is taking the news that his country is chock-full of crazed right-wing gun nuts.
              I posted this with him in mind.
              The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

              Comment


              • #8
                The article that the OP article refers to makes it sound like it is mostly a price issue, with people wanting more money for their guns.

                https://www.mercurynews.com/2019/06/...n-control-law/

                But I think it is more about not wanting to give up their guns at any price.

                Comment


                • #9
                  The long gun registry was a multi-billion dollar fiasco here. Many people hid their guns and Stephen Harper did away with it when he became PM.

                  I am ignorant and indifferent as to whether NZ's proposed gun laws are with hand guns and long guns, or what. Hand guns were already banned in Canada before the long gun registry was put in to place, but it sure doesn't stop the criminals from getting them. I doubt it would work in other countries either, unless it is forced compliance by military measures.


                  Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                    The article that the OP article refers to makes it sound like it is mostly a price issue, with people wanting more money for their guns.

                    https://www.mercurynews.com/2019/06/...n-control-law/

                    But I think it is more about not wanting to give up their guns at any price.
                    It is partly a price issue, and partly people reacting to a badly thought out knee jerk law.

                    The price side of things this post covers it:

                    https://m.facebook.com/story.php?sto...96090850405334
                    Source: Kiwi Gun Blog


                    My name is John Herbert and I was one of the experts involved with KPMG led pricing scheme for the buyback. I am also part of the Firearms Community Advisory Forum that works with Police to advise on legislation etc.

                    There are some things you need to know.

                    The published document has errors and omissions. This occurred because of the following reasons.

                    1. Like the legislation it was rushed. All the pricing was done over one 5 hour period. 5 hours to get a possible 1 billion dollar buy back correct. KPMG made it clear this was our one shot at it.
                    2. The pricing was not checked post the meeting by the experts but was presented as written by KPMG staff who were constantly being corrected by the experts during the 5 hours we were doing the pricing. The KPMG staff had no firearms experience at all and did not understand the terminology or descriptions.
                    3. There were separate prices for E category firearms and A category firearms. This is not reflected in the document.
                    4. The experts all agreed that accessories specifically magazines should be purchased at full retail, KPMG agreed. 70% means that most people will get less than what the paid
                    5. The pricing for collectable Semi Autos like M1 Garand’s M1 Carbines and German WW2 rifles is incorrect. It was made clear to KPMG that these rifles are appreciating in value and that a 95 70 25% value rating does not reflect their actual value. Simply put a Garand is 70 years old now, how can new or near new be applied in this instance? The pricing given for these collectables was based on the documented sale prices of these rifles over the last two years. Any Garand in reasonable condition will be a $6k plus rifle.
                    6. The parts list has many omissions, again everything was rushed, but some items have just not been included. There is no parts list for many rifles L1A1, G3, M14 etc. Nothing for rifle stocks and barrels for many rifles.
                    7. The document has ambiguous descriptions and double entries; again if it was fact checked by the experts this could have been fixed. As an example there are multiple entries for SVT40 rifles as well as for M1 Garand’s. Bushmaster AR15 rifles don’t even have a price, (plenty of them in NZ).
                    8. Experts agreed with KPMG that individual valuations could take place and the fee should be fair, say $50. $120 is not fair.
                    9. There is nothing published that addresses pricing of Semi Auto bespoke accessories like AR15 only Scopes, slings, Bayonets magazine pouches etc. These items are all useless with the rifles and owners will want compensation at market value.

                    Again we have a rushed half [censored] process that says to firearm owners we don’t care about you and we don’t care to understand what your assets are worth. When the Australians who were involved with their buyback came over in March April to advise they made it very clear to the Government and Police “You need to pay full price if you want compliance”. Clearly this has been ignored. Many in the firearms community and all involved in the pricing are appalled.

                    The published pricing has dramatically increased the chances of Noncompliance. Noncompliance is the worst case scenario and Police will attest to that. In NZ we expect things to be fair; when the Govt buys your house so they can put a road through they pay market value, why is this model not being applied to firearms owners who it must be said have done nothing wrong here. As a community we are being treated as second class citizens, our opinions are not being listened to and our assets are being taken at below market rates. We believe the low prices reflect the governments fear over the cost of the buyback, we believe they know full well this will cost over 1 billion dollars but will it make NZ a safer place? Not when the likelihood of a big Grey Gun market is rapidly becoming a reality.

                    © Copyright Original Source

                    Be watchful, stand firm in the faith, act like men, be strong.
                    1 Corinthians 16:13

                    "...he [Doherty] is no historian and he is not even conversant with the historical discussions of the very matters he wants to pontificate on."
                    -Ben Witherington III

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
                      This is Exhibit A in why mass gun confiscation simply isn't going to happen in the US. It didn't work there, where ownership rates are lower and the gun culture that exists in the US doesn't exist. Even if some future government tried it... good luck going anywhere with it.
                      It's not necessarily about getting all unlawful guns (although that would be ideal), it's about making it very hard to get the type of guns that can result in a mass shooting like in Christchurch. Australia passed similar laws two decades ago, which have been successful, and today the number of mass shootings is almost non-existent, and usually family related when it does happen: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_la...s_in_Australia

                      The terrorist probably came to NZ because of easy access to firearms. Which is something the government, with the support of most of the populace, has endeavored to change. If Australia is anything to go by, it will be largely successful, particularly if good law abiding conservative people, do not break the law.
                      Last edited by Zara; 07-08-2019, 07:26 PM.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Zara View Post
                        IAustralia passed similar laws two decades ago, which have been successful, and today the number of mass shootings is almost non-existent, and usually family related when it does happen: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_la...s_in_Australia.
                        Australia is an interesting one, because while the number of mass shootings decreased following the buyback, the number of mass killings didn't. It's just the perpetrators used different weapons from arson to vehicles to knives. Also, rates of violent crime and suicide have actually increased in the following decades.

                        So while they were able to put a big crimp in gun related crimes, the buyback did pretty much nothing to improve overall peace and safety.

                        https://thefederalist.com/2015/09/03...n-ban-conceit/
                        Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                        But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                        Than a fool in the eyes of God


                        From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                          Australia is an interesting one, because while the number of mass shootings decreased following the buyback, the number of mass killings didn't. It's just the perpetrators used different weapons from arson to vehicles to knives. Also, rates of violent crime and suicide have actually increased in the following decades.

                          So while they were able to put a big crimp in gun related crimes, the buyback did pretty much nothing to improve overall peace and safety.

                          https://thefederalist.com/2015/09/03...n-ban-conceit/
                          If it makes terrorist attacks like the one in Christchurch sufficiently difficult, then the law is successful. It is likely that the terrorist came to NZ because of its gun laws - Australia exporting its filth. In the future, this is less likely. I do not see that as a loss. People can still go hunting, defend themselves and generally play with firearms - just not military stye guns. I personally don't have a problem with that.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Zara View Post
                            If it makes terrorist attacks like the one in Christchurch sufficiently difficult, then the law is successful. It is likely that the terrorist came to NZ because of its gun laws - Australia exporting its filth. In the future, this is less likely. I do not see that as a loss. People can still go hunting, defend themselves and generally play with firearms - just not military stye guns. I personally don't have a problem with that.
                            So, are you ok with terrorists using, say, bombs instead of guns? If they want to kill a lot of people at once, and they can't get guns, do you think they'll just give up?
                            Curiosity never hurt anyone. It was stupidity that killed the cat.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by QuantaFille View Post
                              So, are you ok with terrorists using, say, bombs instead of guns? If they want to kill a lot of people at once, and they can't get guns, do you think they'll just give up?
                              They can't get bombs, either. A considerable amount of bomb making material is illegal, also. Or tanks, I wouldn't be ok with tanks either. I'm not ok with any type of weapon, obviously. Do I like it that I have to go through security to get on a plane, not really, however, if it means that they don't have access to planes, then fine.
                              Last edited by Zara; 07-08-2019, 09:26 PM.

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