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Thread: Noncompliance Kneecaps New Zealand's Gun Control Scheme

  1. #21
    Child of the One True King Raphael's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zara View Post
    The thing that killed 51 people, was a gun bought at a store, legally. Making bombs is illegal - like these guns now - and, frankly, not as easy as you're making out - as you point out, he failed. I also don't see you defending the right to sell bombs in stores - explosions are 'cool' too you know.
    He only failed because the cops stopped him before he got a chance to set it off.
    and making bombs is pretty easy. One of my best mates kept himself occupied during school holidays by making things go bang (for no other reason than it's fun to make things go boom).

    Also I grew up in South Africa. We could buy some fairly impressive fireworks over the counter when I was a kid, one mate had some that used to leave some vary large craters in a dirt drive. My current objection to their sale is because of pets not liking fireworks and not because stupid people can injure themselves with them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zara View Post
    Either way, one very easy way of killing a lot of people, is now no longer available. There's a reason why these style of weapons are largely banned in developed countries. And why violent deaths for firearms are a fraction of those in the US.
    And 99.99% of the owners of those weapons were responsible, law abiding citizens who didn't kill anything but possums and rabbits.
    And as we've seen in France a truck could do worse. The scumbag we're talking about could have legally purchased one and used it to run over people leaving the mosque.
    And they very nearly banned any gun that could take a clip and paintball markers. (full disclosure, I don't own any guns, but do own two paintball markers)

    Quote Originally Posted by Zara View Post
    Nor is the discussion around gun control particularly rational - so there's that too. Why aren't heavy machine guns and RPGs legal? Or tanks, or why is there even security for planes, I mean, if terrorists are going to find 'a way' anyway, then you might as well get rid of security checks. And similar not particularly rational arguments.
    A mate in Huntly owns a tank.....yeah the main gun is currently disable but a little time in the engineering shop would make it operational again (which happens to be the family business). The rest of the tank is perfectly operational, but goes through diesel like Winston goes through whiskey.
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  2. #22
    Evolution is God's ID rogue06's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raphael View Post
    ummm the Coward of Christchurch (I refuse to give him the publicity of having his name out there) also had a car set up to explode. had he managed to get it to go off at the right location he would have killed a lot more than the 51 people he did.
    As for bomb making material being illegal.....half the things in your kitchen could make a nasty little bomb.
    Or even a little pool chlorine and brake fluid (both available from the Warehouse)
    In a debate about 20 years ago over gun control between Atlanta mayor Bill Campbell and former ambassador and occasional Republican presidential candidate Alan Keyes, the mayor agreed with the (sarcastic) suggestion that maybe pipes and the like should be registered and government controlled so as to prevent terrorist bombings.

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  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by rogue06 View Post
    In a debate about 20 years ago over gun control between Atlanta mayor Bill Campbell and former ambassador and occasional Republican presidential candidate Alan Keyes, the mayor agreed with the (sarcastic) suggestion that maybe pipes and the like should be registered and government controlled so as to prevent terrorist bombings.
    I'm just not for automatic weapons. It's too easy. They tend to be one of the most used types by terrorists, when other options also exist - so they appear to be seen as one of the more reliable by terrorists.

    This isn't personal. I don't want to control people's lives, but I think this is a reasonable limit. Most gun related activity can be achieved without an automatic weapon or one that can be easily converted to one. And if there are exceptions, then law can provide for them.

    I do not believe there is a fear of government tyranny in New Zealand, which I assume is a large part of the US justification?
    Last edited by Zara; 07-09-2019 at 02:33 AM.

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  5. #24
    Evolution is God's ID rogue06's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zara View Post
    I'm just not for automatic weapons. It's too easy. They tend to be one of the most used types by terrorists, when other options also exist - so they appear to be seen as one of the more reliable by terrorists.

    This isn't personal. I don't want to control people's lives, but I think this is a reasonable limit. Most gun related activity can be achieved without an automatic weapon or one that can be easily converted to one. And if there are exceptions, then law can provide for them.

    I do not believe there is a fear of government tyranny in New Zealand, which I assume is a large part of the US justification?
    Automatic weapons are already incredibly difficult to obtain.

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  6. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by rogue06 View Post
    Automatic weapons are already incredibly difficult to obtain.
    Good.

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  8. #26
    tWebber Mountain Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zara View Post
    Have you seen the difference in violent crime rates between the US and say, pretty much any developed country in the world? Take the Netherlands - https://www.nationmaster.com/country...d-States/Crime
    This is known as deflection, so I'll take it, then, that you don't care about crime rates in general as long as gun crime specifically is down, even if the former historically spikes following gun bans.

    As for the US, its much larger population and distinct regional differences and variety of gun laws make it impossible to directly compare with small, European nations, some of which have smaller populations than our largest cities.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Man View Post
    This is known as deflection, so I'll take it, then, that you don't care about crime rates in general as long as gun crime specifically is down, even if the former historically spikes following gun bans.

    As for the US, its much larger population and distinct regional differences and variety of gun laws make it impossible to directly compare with small, European nations, some of which have smaller populations than our largest cities.
    This isn't deflection. This is pointing out that 1) I don't trust your figures (no offence but they are likely to be biased) and 2) who knows what other factors influenced the situation in Australia and 3) violent crime rates overall are far lower anyway. But as you say about the Netherlands, you can't compare things, so ...

    Meanwhile around 90% of Australians are happy with the gun laws as they are now, so there's that. They can go hunting, they can defend themselves and play at the shooting range - just not with every sort of gun ever made. Again, to be absolutely clear, I am not against people owning guns for those activities - just not semi-automatics that can be easily converted into something equivalent to an automatic weapon (as happened in Christchurch).

    Since you exclude other types of weapons from your constitutional right, why not also just exclude semi-automatics that can be converted into automatic? Is it just because you think that it won't make a difference to the overall crime rate? I could pick all of Western Europe combined, as I doubt I could find one country that has even a comparable violent crime rate to that of the US - particularly with firearms. The US is arguably a greater country, so, something doesn't add up.

    Since this is probably going to rattle your chain, and since I am not actually keen to irritate, another option is to just drop the with me discussion here.
    Last edited by Zara; 07-09-2019 at 05:09 AM.

  10. #28
    Troll Magnet Sparko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zara View Post
    If it makes terrorist attacks like the one in Christchurch sufficiently difficult, then the law is successful. It is likely that the terrorist came to NZ because of its gun laws - Australia exporting its filth. In the future, this is less likely. I do not see that as a loss. People can still go hunting, defend themselves and generally play with firearms - just not military stye guns. I personally don't have a problem with that.
    The ban isn't just for military style weapons but for nearly all semi-automatic guns, and pump shotguns.

    The Bill inserts new provisions to provide a general prohibition on importing, selling, supplying, or possessing any of the following:

    a semi-automatic firearm (other than a pistol), with some exceptions:

    a pump-action shotgun that is capable of being used with a detachable magazine:

    a pump-action shotgun that has a non-detachable tubular magazine or magazines that can hold more than 5 cartridges or magazines:

    magazines for shotguns that can hold more than 5 cartridges:

    magazines for any other firearm that are detachable and can hold—

    0.22 calibre or less rimfire cartridges and more than 10 of those cartridges; or

    more than 10 cartridges and can be used with a semi-automatic or fully automatic firearm:

    any other magazine that can hold more than 10 cartridges:

    a part of a prohibited firearm, including a component, that can be applied to enable, or take significant steps towards enabling, a firearm to be fired with, or near, a semi-automatic action.
    http://legislation.govt.nz/bill/gove...9580345e2.html

  11. #29
    Evolution is God's ID rogue06's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zara View Post
    Good.
    It is always a plus to know what you are arguing about.

    I'm always still in trouble again

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  12. #30
    Troll Magnet Sparko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zara View Post
    I'm just not for automatic weapons. It's too easy. They tend to be one of the most used types by terrorists, when other options also exist - so they appear to be seen as one of the more reliable by terrorists.
    AR-15s are not "automatic weapons" they are semi-automatic. You don't seem to know the difference, which makes your opinion regarding guns less than useful in a gun control debate. An AR-15 is operationally no different than any hunting rifle, it just looks scarier.

    And just for your info:
    An Automatic weapon would be one where when you hold down the trigger, it just keeps shooting - a machine gun for example. A semi-auto requires you to press the trigger for each shot.


    This isn't personal. I don't want to control people's lives, but I think this is a reasonable limit. Most gun related activity can be achieved without an automatic weapon or one that can be easily converted to one. And if there are exceptions, then law can provide for them.

    I do not believe there is a fear of government tyranny in New Zealand, which I assume is a large part of the US justification?
    Most people own guns for sport and self-protection. Protection against muggers, burglars, home invaders, and so on. And it sounds like you are already having some tyranny in New Zealand.
    Last edited by Sparko; 07-09-2019 at 05:23 AM.

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