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This is the forum to discuss the spectrum of views within Christianity on God's foreknowledge and election such as Calvinism, Arminianism, Molinism, Open Theism, Process Theism, Restrictivism, and Inclusivism, Christian Universalism and what these all are about anyway. Who is saved and when is/was their salvation certain? How does God exercise His sovereignty and how powerful is He? Is God timeless and immutable? Does a triune God help better understand God's love for mankind?

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  • Originally posted by mikewhitney View Post
    Very good.

    If the Galatians as seeking to be circumcised in order to fall prey to the false gospel being preached, they are seeking entrance into the full Jewish law. They thought that circumcision was required for justification. This was an idea pushed by people trying to disrupt the Christians.

    If someone is not being circumcised with the assumption that it is required for the gospel, then circumcision has no relevance. It was okay to be circumcised if it is not thought to be required for justification with God. They were doing it for reaching Jews with the gospel work.
    Why would Timothy being circumcised "reach the Jews for the gospel work?"

    Jews basically remained obligated to the law until the temple fell.
    Even Christian Jews? Else why claim this? (A claim made nowhere in scripture, mind you.)

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Darfius View Post
      Why would Timothy being circumcised "reach the Jews for the gospel work?"
      Paul didn't want Timothy to be the topic of discussion. He was apparently trying to share the decision from Acts 15 with Jews in surrounding areas.

      Even Christian Jews? Else why claim this? (A claim made nowhere in scripture, mind you.)
      The gospel was spreading to a greater number of Gentiles. So we mainly have the information pertaining to Gentiles.

      I thought you already knew the scripture that the law was in effect until heaven and earth passed away. This happened when the temple fell. If you like, we can just say that Jewish followers of Christ were not going to be judged by the law.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by mikewhitney View Post
        Paul didn't want Timothy to be the topic of discussion. He was apparently trying to share the decision from Acts 15 with Jews in surrounding areas.
        Your claim is that Paul made Timothy undergo a painful, unnecessary operation so he "wouldn't be the topic of discussion?" Worse than unnecessary, Paul had said anyone who allowed himself (and Timothy allowed himself) to be circumcised was cut off from Christ. Why not just send Timothy away?

        I thought you already knew the scripture that the law was in effect until heaven and earth passed away. This happened when the temple fell. If you like, we can just say that Jewish followers of Christ were not going to be judged by the law.
        Where does the Bible say "heaven and earth passed away" when the temple fell? This is why preterism is a dangerous heresy. Which is unsurprising, when you just make stuff up as you go along.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Darfius View Post
          Your claim is that Paul made Timothy undergo a painful, unnecessary operation so he "wouldn't be the topic of discussion?" Worse than unnecessary, Paul had said anyone who allowed himself (and Timothy allowed himself) to be circumcised was cut off from Christ. Why not just send Timothy away?
          Paul chose who he wanted to travel with. Don't you think so?


          Originally posted by Darfius View Post
          Where does the Bible say "heaven and earth passed away" when the temple fell? This is why preterism is a dangerous heresy. Which is unsurprising, when you just make stuff up as you go along.
          Was the temple nothing but a pretty building to the Jews? I'm surprised that you treat the destruction of the temple so casually. The temple was the universe to them.

          Comment


          • Since your explanation is obviously idiotic, I will give the real reason Paul had Timothy circumcised. It was because Timothy, as a Gentile (his father was Gentile, therefore he was), had become mature enough in the faith to fully become one of God's covenant people, with a sign in his flesh that he was so. And conveniently, his declaration that he had become one of God's people (effectively an Israelite in the eyes of the Jews) would allow him to "not be a distraction". He did not do it in ritualistic, legalistic fashion "to be saved", which would have qualified him to be condemned as one of the people Paul was condemning in Galatians, but as a work bearing out his faith.

            On the surface, and by your and Sparko's interpretation, Paul contradicts himself, to the point that he condemns Timothy. Once you understand that the only "law" he ever condemns is the traditions of men and the misapplication of the written law as something it was not (it was meant to point the way to Christ, not provide the salvation only He can provide), the verses are reconciled perfectly.

            The temple was built in the wrong spot and not according to the specifications laid out in Ezekiel 40. It most certainly was not some eschatological feature. Even the real temple will not be what you claim the fake temple was. Heaven and earth will actually pass away "by fire" as Peter lays out. You dare to talk about logic as you "spiritualize" away God's word to mean whatever you want it to mean, rather than what it clearly means.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Darfius View Post
              Since your explanation is obviously idiotic, I will give the real reason Paul had Timothy circumcised. It was because Timothy, as a Gentile (his father was Gentile, therefore he was), had become mature enough in the faith to fully become one of God's covenant people, with a sign in his flesh that he was so. And conveniently, his declaration that he had become one of God's people (effectively an Israelite in the eyes of the Jews) would allow him to "not be a distraction". He did not do it in ritualistic, legalistic fashion "to be saved", which would have qualified him to be condemned as one of the people Paul was condemning in Galatians, but as a work bearing out his faith.

              On the surface, and by your and Sparko's interpretation, Paul contradicts himself, to the point that he condemns Timothy. Once you understand that the only "law" he ever condemns is the traditions of men and the misapplication of the written law as something it was not (it was meant to point the way to Christ, not provide the salvation only He can provide), the verses are reconciled perfectly.

              The temple was built in the wrong spot and not according to the specifications laid out in Ezekiel 40. It most certainly was not some eschatological feature. Even the real temple will not be what you claim the fake temple was. Heaven and earth will actually pass away "by fire" as Peter lays out. You dare to talk about logic as you "spiritualize" away God's word to mean whatever you want it to mean, rather than what it clearly means.
              Where did you learn this doctrine from? You have stated so much stuff that is unusual. You contradict Paul -- making a strong statement against his teachings. Your whole point about Timothy doesn't fit the context of Acts 16. You are sort of presenting a hierarchy of Jewish law status that Gentiles have to attain. This is a scary doctrine.

              You have provided a works-oriented religion where circumcision at a mature state is 'valid' as a way to become part of the covenant people.
              Last edited by mikewhitney; 07-23-2019, 08:43 PM.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by mikewhitney View Post
                Where did you learn this doctrine from? You have stated so much stuff that is unusual. You contradict Paul -- making a strong statement against his teachings. Your whole point about Timothy doesn't fit the context of Acts 16. You are sort of presenting a hierarchy of Jewish law status that Gentiles have to attain. This is a scary doctrine.
                We are Israelites (not Jews), you moron. I told you that already. That is why James titled his letter "to the twelve tribes." I'm sure as a preterist you thought that was because he was a raving lunatic making some "spiritual" point, but it's because he was led by God to sprinkle a truth only the "wise" (those who become like children) would pick up on. I never contradict Paul, but I do contradict what common men (like you) have learned from other common men who have no commerce with the Spirit of Christ, but fancy that they do because they know how to use the jargon. The "hierarchy" you accuse me of presenting is called "actually being a Christian", as opposed to joining some social club with other likeminded "let's say we're Christians because it makes us feel good inside and we get 'spiritual' brownie points for it" hypocrites.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Darfius View Post
                  We are Israelites (not Jews), you moron. I told you that already. That is why James titled his letter "to the twelve tribes." I'm sure as a preterist you thought that was because he was a raving lunatic making some "spiritual" point, but it's because he was led by God to sprinkle a truth only the "wise" (those who become like children) would pick up on. I never contradict Paul, but I do contradict what common men (like you) have learned from other common men who have no commerce with the Spirit of Christ, but fancy that they do because they know how to use the jargon. The "hierarchy" you accuse me of presenting is called "actually being a Christian", as opposed to joining some social club with other likeminded "let's say we're Christians because it makes us feel good inside and we get 'spiritual' brownie points for it" hypocrites.
                  I had added this part after you started responding to my post: "You have provided a works-oriented religion where circumcision at a mature state is 'valid' as a way to become part of the covenant people."



                  I'm glad we got to this point in the discussion. I would hope that you would settle on a more humbler doctrine.
                  Last edited by mikewhitney; 07-23-2019, 08:50 PM.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by mikewhitney View Post
                    I had added this part after you started responding to my post: "You have provided a works-oriented religion where circumcision at a mature state is 'valid' as a way to become part of the covenant people."



                    I'm glad we got to this point in the discussion. I would hope that you would settle on a more humbler doctrine.
                    I don't need a "more humbler" doctrine, because all I am saying is that you actually need to do what God says to do to be one of God's people. I know that sounds revolutionary to the "I can sin to my heart's content so long as I sponge bath with the blood of Jesus" crowd, but it's just plain common sense to those of us who become "as little children" enough to be open to the truth and disgusted by hypocrisy.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Darfius View Post
                      And those Christ enables by His Spirit. You keep leaving out that part. He is both the author and the perfecter of our faith. You can't perfect something that either exists or doesn't. But if it is a process, then you can perfect it.



                      As I mentioned, fear has to do with punishment. I no longer feared God in the sense of His wrath when I came to understand the depth of His love for me as expressed most fully in Christ. I fear failing Him, of course, just as I fear failing everyone I love, but that is a holy fear and the end of wisdom. Fear of the former sort is only the beginning of wisdom.

                      I don't act hateful towards people, only towards the sin they cling to and identify so closely with that they consider my hate directed towards them. It must be tough to live in a world where you think God murdered His son to "save" you from His inability to forgive you.
                      So how is keeping the Law going Darfius? When was the last time you sinned?

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Darfius View Post
                        Since your explanation is obviously idiotic, I will give the real reason Paul had Timothy circumcised. It was because Timothy, as a Gentile (his father was Gentile, therefore he was), had become mature enough in the faith to fully become one of God's covenant people, with a sign in his flesh that he was so.
                        Where does the bible claim this?

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                          Where does the bible claim this?
                          Romans 17:1, you moron. Can't you read?
                          Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                          Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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                          I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                            Romans 17:1, you moron. Can't you read?
                            Ah. I thought it might have been Judaizer 3:16

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                              1,050? Wow. Talk about Pharisaism on steroids!
                              The Torah has “only” 613 commandments - 437 fewer. If there are 1050 different commandments in the NT, that makes it far more burdensome than the Torah. So much for “My yoke is easy, and My burden is light” !

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                                In a bit if irony, here's what I got when I checked out that site...

                                [ATTACH=CONFIG]38245[/ATTACH]
                                It worked fine for me. The figure of 1050 is exaggerated, to say the least, because very few of the examples count as commandments. “Advice flowing from the Gospel” might fit most of them.

                                Comment

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