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Thread: Are Christians Permitted to Eat Unclean Animals?

  1. #101
    tWebber
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    By the way, the calendar of fixed "weeks" that we have now came from the Romans. Saturn's day has not always been the 7th day. I'd tell you to educate yourselves, but you're inherently opposed to that.

  2. #102
    tWebber Chrawnus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darfius View Post
    I like how even though Soyeong has been nothing but cordial and respectful even in the face of ridicule in this thread, you guys still ridicule and disrespect him. It makes me feel completely justified in treating you like the hypocrites you are.

    "We don't have to do what God said because Jesus came to deliver us from doing what God said." omgsmdhwtfroflmfao And you guys dare to call yourselves Christians.

    Jesus and Paul's beef were with the oral law of the Pharisees, not the written law. The "traditions of men" which had obscured and overruled the laws of God. No one has to get circumcised to be saved, but if you know that God desires such a sign of your loyalty to Him in your flesh, why wouldn't you? Jesus came to save us from abuse, misapplication, misinterpretation, and disobedience to the law into a perfect fulfillment of it because we have something better: the Spirit.
    You're working from the presumption that circumcision is something "God desires [as] a sign of your loyalty to Him in your flesh" but there is absolutely nothing in Scripture that supports this idea. Circumcision was the mark of the old covenant, not the new, and there's no need anymore for anyone who doesn't belong to the old covenant to undergo circumcision for the sole reason of pleasing God.

    And the argument is not that "We don't have to do what God said because Jesus came to deliver us from doing what God said." The argument is that as gentiles we were never required to follow the Law of Moses in the first place, since that Law was for the people living under the old covenant. We were required to follow the Moral Law, but the Moral Law and the Mosaic Law are not the same thing, even though parts of the Mosaic Law is a specific expression of the Moral Law fit for the time and culture in which it was given. And even when we become members of the new covenant there is still no need for us to follow the Law of Moses in the sense that we have to follow every commandment in the Old Testament literally as it is written. There are of course general moral principles behind the moral laws in the Old Testament that we ought to try and heed, but trying to literally fulfill every commandment and rule from the old covenant to the letter is completely unnecessary.

    And we haven't even touched on the sacrificial, ritual, dietary and purity laws of the OT yet, of which there is probably not a single one that we as gentiles (both before and after becoming Christians) have any obligation, nor any reason that would be generally applicable, to follow. Neither is there any obligation for a Jewish convert to continue following these laws after he becomes a Christian, except for the sacrifical laws (ignoring for a moment the fact that performing sacrifices according to the laws of the OT is impossible at the moment), although he may choose to continue living according to these laws if he wishes to.

  3. Amen Cerebrum123 amen'd this post.
  4. #103
    tWebber NorrinRadd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darfius View Post
    I like how even though Soyeong has been nothing but cordial and respectful even in the face of ridicule in this thread, you guys still ridicule and disrespect him. It makes me feel completely justified in treating you like the hypocrites you are.

    "We don't have to do what God said because Jesus came to deliver us from doing what God said." omgsmdhwtfroflmfao And you guys dare to call yourselves Christians.

    Jesus and Paul's beef were with the oral law of the Pharisees, not the written law. The "traditions of men" which had obscured and overruled the laws of God. No one has to get circumcised to be saved, but if you know that God desires such a sign of your loyalty to Him in your flesh, why wouldn't you? Jesus came to save us from abuse, misapplication, misinterpretation, and disobedience to the law into a perfect fulfillment of it because we have something better: the Spirit.
    If the intent was that we are still to follow the Law of the Obsolete Covenant, then Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Paul, and the author of Hebrews should have written *much* more clearly. Even James should have done better. Off the top of my head, only Peter and Jude did not write anything that would specifically suggest the old Law is no longer in effect for those in Christ.
    Last edited by NorrinRadd; 07-22-2019 at 12:14 AM.
    Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

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  5. Amen Chrawnus, Cerebrum123 amen'd this post.
  6. #104
    Troll Magnet Sparko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darfius View Post
    I like how even though Soyeong has been nothing but cordial and respectful even in the face of ridicule in this thread, you guys still ridicule and disrespect him. It makes me feel completely justified in treating you like the hypocrites you are.

    "We don't have to do what God said because Jesus came to deliver us from doing what God said." omgsmdhwtfroflmfao And you guys dare to call yourselves Christians.

    Jesus and Paul's beef were with the oral law of the Pharisees, not the written law. The "traditions of men" which had obscured and overruled the laws of God. No one has to get circumcised to be saved, but if you know that God desires such a sign of your loyalty to Him in your flesh, why wouldn't you? Jesus came to save us from abuse, misapplication, misinterpretation, and disobedience to the law into a perfect fulfillment of it because we have something better: the Spirit.
    I haven't disrespected him. You on the other hand know no other mode of posting and get what you dish out.

  7. #105
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chrawnus View Post
    You're working from the presumption that circumcision is something "God desires [as] a sign of your loyalty to Him in your flesh" but there is absolutely nothing in Scripture that supports this idea. Circumcision was the mark of the old covenant, not the new, and there's no need anymore for anyone who doesn't belong to the old covenant to undergo circumcision for the sole reason of pleasing God.
    Scripture Verse: Genesis 17

    9 Then God said to Abraham, “As for you, you must keep my covenant, you and your descendants after you for the generations to come. 10 This is my covenant with you and your descendants after you, the covenant you are to keep: Every male among you shall be circumcised. 11 You are to undergo circumcision, and it will be the sign of the covenant between me and you. 12 For the generations to come every male among you who is eight days old must be circumcised, including those born in your household or bought with money from a foreigner—those who are not your offspring. 13 Whether born in your household or bought with your money, they must be circumcised. My covenant in your flesh is to be an everlasting covenant. 14 Any uncircumcised male, who has not been circumcised in the flesh, will be cut off from his people; he has broken my covenant.”

    © Copyright Original Source



    So you are either stupid, a liar or--my personal favorite--both.

    And the argument is not that "We don't have to do what God said because Jesus came to deliver us from doing what God said." The argument is that as gentiles we were never required to follow the Law of Moses in the first place, since that Law was for the people living under the old covenant. We were required to follow the Moral Law, but the Moral Law and the Mosaic Law are not the same thing, even though parts of the Mosaic Law is a specific expression of the Moral Law fit for the time and culture in which it was given. And even when we become members of the new covenant there is still no need for us to follow the Law of Moses in the sense that we have to follow every commandment in the Old Testament literally as it is written. There are of course general moral principles behind the moral laws in the Old Testament that we ought to try and heed, but trying to literally fulfill every commandment and rule from the old covenant to the letter is completely unnecessary.
    Where does the New Testament teach that obedience to the written law is no longer necessary? As Soyeong has already pointed out, the list given in Acts for new, Gentile Christians was not meant to be exhaustive, but rather "ease" them into the covenant.

    And we haven't even touched on the sacrificial, ritual, dietary and purity laws of the OT yet, of which there is probably not a single one that we as gentiles (both before and after becoming Christians) have any obligation, nor any reason that would be generally applicable, to follow. Neither is there any obligation for a Jewish convert to continue following these laws after he becomes a Christian, except for the sacrifical laws (ignoring for a moment the fact that performing sacrifices according to the laws of the OT is impossible at the moment), although he may choose to continue living according to these laws if he wishes to.
    Have you or any of the other morons here ever stopped to think why God would give these laws "only to the Jews"? If mere separation from the surrounding cultures was intended, He did not need to use language such as "abomination" or "filth" to describe the behavior the laws are meant to curb. But He did. The laws were clearly universal in application and only given to the Jews because the Jews were the only people group in a position to receive them.

    And the necessity of a temple to carry out sacrifices is probably why the temple is rebuilt and then desecrated by the Antichrist. Why would he desecrate something that means nothing to God, by the way? Hopefully you have a lightbulb moment.

  8. #106
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by NorrinRadd View Post
    If the intent was that we are still to follow the Law of the Obsolete Covenant, then Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Paul, and the author of Hebrews should have written *much* more clearly. Even James should have done better. Off the top of my head, only Peter and Jude did not write anything that would specifically suggest the old Law is no longer in effect for those in Christ.
    Where is the written law called "the obsolete covenant" in Scripture? And the Bible is as clear as it needs to be for those who want it to be clear. The stumbling stone for the Jews was not believing themselves righteous for going through rituals in the name of adhering to the law. The stumbling stone for Christians is not believing themselves righteous for paying lip service to Christ while disobeying Him. Two different problems requiring two different solutions.

  9. #107
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    Darfius is doing the same type of argument as Soyeong. The argument is external to scripture without any mildly supportive scripture to show that Christians are obligated to the Mosaic Law.

    The argument about Abraham's covenant misses the scope of that ... Abraham's physical descendants and, possibly, from one of the covenant passages, just the seed -- who is Jesus.

  10. #108
    Troll Magnet Sparko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darfius
    I like how even though Soyeong has been nothing but cordial and respectful even in the face of ridicule in this thread, you guys still ridicule and disrespect him.
    Me: You on the other hand know no other mode of posting and get what you dish out.

    One post later:

    Quote Originally Posted by Darfius to Chrawnus
    So you are either stupid, a liar or--my personal favorite--both.

  11. Amen NorrinRadd amen'd this post.
  12. #109
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikewhitney View Post
    Darfius is doing the same type of argument as Soyeong. The argument is external to scripture without any mildly supportive scripture to show that Christians are obligated to the Mosaic Law.

    The argument about Abraham's covenant misses the scope of that ... Abraham's physical descendants and, possibly, from one of the covenant passages, just the seed -- who is Jesus.
    Paul says Christians have been "grafted in" to the covenant. Why use that language if the covenant's rules are no longer in effect? And "Abraham's covenant" only applying to Abraham's physical descendants was a mistake the Jews made. I would hope a Christian would know better.

  13. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparko View Post
    Me: You on the other hand know no other mode of posting and get what you dish out.

    One post later:



    I like to bring verbal hellfire to save people from literal hellfire.

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