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Are Christians Permitted to Eat Unclean Animals?

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  • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
    They didn't. Sure they could convert but that is speaking of individuals, I was speaking of nations. The gentile nations did not belong to the old covenant.

    The new covenant relies on Jesus' fullfilment of the law and his taking the punishment we deserve and our receiving his righteousness, not our keeping the law (which we can't do) -- you might want to read Romans and Hebrews again.
    The Bible supports none of these claims. He fulfilled the law to show us it could be done and to enable us to do so, since the law is life. And we can do all things through Christ who strengthens us, especially keep His law. You might want to actually read the Bible.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Darfius View Post
      The text does not say the law was only for the Jews. That is your eisegesis. It says that only the Jews understood the condemnation that came via the law. In fact, Paul says there "is an advantage to being a Jew", because:

      Scripture Verse: Romans 3

      What advantage, then, is there in being a Jew, or what value is there in circumcision? 2 Much in every way! First of all, the Jews have been entrusted with the very words of God.

      © Copyright Original Source



      Words which you seek to nullify. And by the way, many Egyptians joined the Mosaic covenant:

      Scripture Verse: Exodus 12

      37 The Israelites journeyed from Rameses to Sukkoth. There were about six hundred thousand men on foot, besides women and children. 38 Many other people went up with them, and also large droves of livestock, both flocks and herds.

      © Copyright Original Source





      There's no need for me to "envision" anything. It's in writing. I do not eat pork, for example, or indeed any unclean animal.
      I missed your counterargument to Rom 3:19-20. How are Paul's words implying that I was putting my own ideas into the interpretation.

      No one said that the Jews didn't have benefits before Christ came. So what is your point about Rom 3:1-2?

      And so what about Egyptians having joined the Mosaic covenant. I'm not sure how your remark nullifies my argument. Maybe you are using the exceptions to obscure the issues.

      Do you have any other ways you obey the Jewish laws beyond pork?
      Last edited by mikewhitney; 07-23-2019, 02:43 PM.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Darfius View Post
        The Bible supports none of these claims. He fulfilled the law to show us it could be done and to enable us to do so, since the law is life. And we can do all things through Christ who strengthens us, especially keep His law. You might want to actually read the Bible.
        The bible clearly lays out all of it in Romans and some in Hebrews. I can't help it if you are an illiterate legalistic moron.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by mikewhitney View Post
          I missed your counterargument to Rom 3:19-20. How are Paul's words implying that I was putting my own ideas into the interpretation.
          Nowhere does Paul say the law was only for the Jews. That is what you are saying Paul said. Paul actually said that the message of condemnation the law brings was peculiar to the Jews.

          No one said that the Jews didn't have benefits before Christ came. So what is your point about Rom 3:1-2?
          Paul said the advantages of being Jew existed at his time, which was after Christ came. Learn to read. Not reading things into the text that you want to be there will help.

          And so what about Egyptians having joined the Mosaic covenant. I'm not sure how your remark nullifies my argument. Maybe you are using the exceptions to obscure the issues.
          You asked if Moses asked the Egyptians to join the covenant. He did. Don't backpedal in public, it looks ridiculous. Just admit you were wrong.

          Do you have any other ways you obey the Jewish laws beyond pork?
          How is that relevant to whether or not we are obligated to follow the law? Do you even logic, bro?

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
            The bible clearly lays out all of it in Romans and some in Hebrews. I can't help it if you are an illiterate legalistic moron.
            haha. you're such a lazy debater. that's probably why the idea of actually doing what God says to do is so horrifying to you.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Darfius View Post
              Nowhere does Paul say the law was only for the Jews. That is what you are saying Paul said. Paul actually said that the message of condemnation the law brings was peculiar to the Jews.



              Paul said the advantages of being Jew existed at his time, which was after Christ came. Learn to read. Not reading things into the text that you want to be there will help.



              You asked if Moses asked the Egyptians to join the covenant. He did. Don't backpedal in public, it looks ridiculous. Just admit you were wrong.



              How is that relevant to whether or not we are obligated to follow the law? Do you even logic, bro?
              Thanks. I have a glimpse into the thinking of Darfius.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Darfius View Post
                haha. you're such a lazy debater. that's probably why the idea of actually doing what God says to do is so horrifying to you.
                Well I am not going to quote entire chapters of Romans to you when you can easily read them yourself but apparently choose not to. The whole point of the first few chapters of Romans is that we are all sinners, that nobody could follow the law, that in place of the law we have faith in Jesus who fulfilled the law and the new law of faith saves us because we are imputed with the righteousness of Jesus and that those who work for salvation are doomed.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                  Well I am not going to quote entire chapters of Romans to you when you can easily read them yourself but apparently choose not to. The whole point of the first few chapters of Romans is that we are all sinners, that nobody could follow the law, the in place of the law we have faith in Jesus who fulfilled the law and the new law of faith saves us because we are imputed with the righteousness of Jesus and that those who work for salvation are doomed.
                  Yea it doesn't say that, other than that we are all sinners and that no one could keep the law perfectly before Christ. Your interpretation makes it so that Jesus came to save us from God, which is not only ridiculous, but blasphemous.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Darfius View Post
                    Yea it doesn't say that, other than that we are all sinners and that no one could keep the law perfectly before Christ. Your interpretation makes it so that Jesus came to save us from God, which is not only ridiculous, but blasphemous.
                    Ah. Now Paul's gospel is blasphemous. Is that the argument you wish to make?

                    "Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come?"

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Darfius View Post
                      Yea it doesn't say that, other than that we are all sinners and that no one could keep the law perfectly before Christ. Your interpretation makes it so that Jesus came to save us from God, which is not only ridiculous, but blasphemous.
                      God isn't the cause of our damnation, we are. God just provides a way we can be saved, since no one is righteous enough to do it on their own, except Christ.

                      I feel sorry for you Darfy. You must live in constant fear knowing that you are failing to keep the Law and are doomed. Seems like a very stressful way to live. No wonder you act so hateful to everyone.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by mikewhitney View Post
                        Ah. Now Paul's gospel is blasphemous. Is that the argument you wish to make?

                        "Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come?"
                        You are not preaching Paul's gospel, but a different one. And John was talking to the Pharisees, who were creatures of wrath. But the Bible says Jesus came to save us from our sins themselves, the acts, not the punishment for said acts. You are confusing one of the results for the objective. Presumably because you are a creature of fear and "fear has to do with punishment" (1 John).

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                          God isn't the cause of our damnation, we are. God just provides a way we can be saved, since no one is righteous enough to do it on their own, except Christ.
                          And those Christ enables by His Spirit. You keep leaving out that part. He is both the author and the perfecter of our faith. You can't perfect something that either exists or doesn't. But if it is a process, then you can perfect it.

                          I feel sorry for you Darfy. You must live in constant fear knowing that you are failing to keep the Law and are doomed. Seems like a very stressful way to live. No wonder you act so hateful to everyone.
                          As I mentioned, fear has to do with punishment. I no longer feared God in the sense of His wrath when I came to understand the depth of His love for me as expressed most fully in Christ. I fear failing Him, of course, just as I fear failing everyone I love, but that is a holy fear and the end of wisdom. Fear of the former sort is only the beginning of wisdom.

                          I don't act hateful towards people, only towards the sin they cling to and identify so closely with that they consider my hate directed towards them. It must be tough to live in a world where you think God murdered His son to "save" you from His inability to forgive you.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Darfius View Post
                            You are not preaching Paul's gospel, but a different one. And John was talking to the Pharisees, who were creatures of wrath. But the Bible says Jesus came to save us from our sins themselves, the acts, not the punishment for said acts. You are confusing one of the results for the objective. Presumably because you are a creature of fear and "fear has to do with punishment" (1 John).
                            I'm sorry. I was not the one who said Paul was blasphemous. This was your choosing.

                            I just can't find correlation of your law-focused doctrines with that of Jesus or Paul. You are holding to a minority position which seems to first assume that the letter of the law is still an obligation on followers of Christ. I'm curious how you even got into this mode of thinking. the whole letter of Galatians was to prevent the Galatian Christians from taking on an obligation to the law, as if this were required of followers of Christ. Nowhere does Paul tell the Gentiles to follow the law..

                            In Romans, Paul was telling the people not to take on the law, for wrath comes with the law (Rom 4:15) and the law was for Jews (Rom 3:19-20). The Romans had mostly dropped away from following Jewish laws and culture, but Paul never told them to do the law.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by mikewhitney View Post
                              I'm sorry. I was not the one who said Paul was blasphemous. This was your choosing.

                              I just can't find correlation of your law-focused doctrines with that of Jesus or Paul. You are holding to a minority position which seems to first assume that the letter of the law is still an obligation on followers of Christ. I'm curious how you even got into this mode of thinking. the whole letter of Galatians was to prevent the Galatian Christians from taking on an obligation to the law, as if this were required of followers of Christ. Nowhere does Paul tell the Gentiles to follow the law..

                              In Romans, Paul was telling the people not to take on the law, for wrath comes with the law (Rom 4:15) and the law was for Jews (Rom 3:19-20). The Romans had mostly dropped away from following Jewish laws and culture, but Paul never told them to do the law.
                              Reconcile these verses for us:

                              Scripture Verse: Galatians 5

                              2 Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all. 3 Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law.

                              © Copyright Original Source



                              and:

                              Scripture Verse: Acts 16

                              3 Paul wanted to take him along on the journey, so he circumcised him because of the Jews who lived in that area, for they all knew that his father was a Greek.

                              © Copyright Original Source

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Darfius View Post
                                Reconcile these verses for us:

                                Scripture Verse: Galatians 5

                                2 Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all. 3 Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law.

                                © Copyright Original Source



                                and:

                                Scripture Verse: Acts 16

                                3 Paul wanted to take him along on the journey, so he circumcised him because of the Jews who lived in that area, for they all knew that his father was a Greek.

                                © Copyright Original Source

                                Very good.

                                If the Galatians as seeking to be circumcised in order to fall prey to the false gospel being preached, they are seeking entrance into the full Jewish law. They thought that circumcision was required for justification. This was an idea pushed by people trying to disrupt the Christians.

                                If someone is not being circumcised with the assumption that it is required for the gospel, then circumcision has no relevance. It was okay to be circumcised if it is not thought to be required for justification with God. They were doing it for reaching Jews with the gospel work.

                                Jews basically remained obligated to the law until the temple fell. But we also find in Acts 21:17ff that many Jews who followed Christ had become zealous for the law. James warned Paul of the apparent dangers of being around these Jews without doing some purification rights in order to appease these Jews.
                                Last edited by mikewhitney; 07-23-2019, 06:03 PM.

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