Originally posted by Littlejoe
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Christians and Trump--two perspectives
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"I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostTimothy, if Christians can't vote for immoral politicians, then you must never vote. Is that correct?
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Originally posted by Zymologist View PostI'm just thinking--and keeping in mind that I don't pay much attention to these things--his claims to current Christian faith seem pretty weak sauce to me, especially in light of lacking things like a repudiation of past immorality (his "grab" comment, etc.). I've seen some claim that he's a baby Christian, which I suppose is possible, but I'm not sure I buy it."I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill
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Originally posted by Zymologist View PostI'm just thinking--and keeping in mind that I don't pay much attention to these things--his claims to current Christian faith seem pretty weak sauce to me, especially in light of lacking things like a repudiation of past immorality (his "grab" comment, etc.). I've seen some claim that he's a baby Christian, which I suppose is possible, but I'm not sure I buy it.
The idea that "others say" doesn't seem, to me, to pass the "confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus" test.The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by Timothy View PostI can see that I will not get fair treatment here.The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostWhile I'm always cautious not to proclaim somebody is NOT a Christian, I have to say I don't see the fruit in Trump, and I haven't heard the profession of faith.
The idea that "others say" doesn't seem, to me, to pass the "confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus" test.
I didn't vote for him on this basis so politically, not an issue. As a Christian..."He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot
"Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman
My Personal Blog
My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)
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Originally posted by Adrift View PostWhile I don't vote, I've seen this argument on the forum a few times, and I'm not sure it's a very good one. It seems to me that there are gradients of past moral failures that we can probably justifiably overlook, and then there are some that are a lot harder to overlook, especially when the person in question doesn't seem especially remorseful or repentant of them, and has at times actually demonstrated pride in that behavior. We don't expect our presidents to be saints, but as with any person in a position of great authority, and who acts, in a very real sense, as the face an ambassador of the American people, one would hope that he'd be somewhat beyond reproach.
But I notice from Timothy's list of "immoral acts" that it is just mostly things he doesn't agree with that Trump has done. Many things, like immigration are not black and white moral choices. One person might look at the situation on the border and only see suffering families wanting to get help. Others will see people who are selfishly trying to break into our country ahead of thousands who are waiting in line patiently to be legally allowed in. Practically there is no way we can have open borders and allow everyone in who wants to come. It is not a matter of "being Christian" or "being moral"
What it comes down to is that people, even Christians can disagree with how they see a candidate. I saw Hillary as immoral, someone who supports abortion, gay marriage, got our soldiers killed in Benghazi, thought she was above the law and had her own private server which she sent classified emails from, then tried to hide it by erasing files and smashing phones. I say Trump as an egomaniac and a narcissist, and someone who had done some immoral things in the past with women, but who claimed he had become a Christian since then. I voted for him. Since he has been in office I haven't seen him cheat on his wife, although some earlier scandals have come to light from before he said he became a Christian. I have seen him keep his promises as best he could, support prolife ideals, put conservative judges on the supreme court, and fight to prevent illegal aliens from overwhelming our borders.
I respect Timothy's view on Trump and don't question his sincerity or his faith. I just wish he could do the same with us. ...You know, what liberals always preach: Tolerance?
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostIf our standard was our leaders had to be completely moral, we would all have to forgo voting at all, because no human is sinless.
Originally posted by Sparko View PostIf we are to participate in our government as citizens, we have to make certain choices. For me, it is usually abortion. I try not to vote for any candidate that openly supports abortion. But sometimes the choice comes down to voting the lesser of two evils. Because by non-action you might actually be allowing a greater evil to prevail. So you can't just stand by and do nothing.
Originally posted by Sparko View PostBut I notice from Timothy's list of "immoral acts" that it is just mostly things he doesn't agree with that Trump has done. Many things, like immigration are not black and white moral choices. One person might look at the situation on the border and only see suffering families wanting to get help. Others will see people who are selfishly trying to break into our country ahead of thousands who are waiting in line patiently to be legally allowed in. Practically there is no way we can have open borders and allow everyone in who wants to come. It is not a matter of "being Christian" or "being moral"
Originally posted by Sparko View PostWhat it comes down to is that people, even Christians can disagree with how they see a candidate. I saw Hillary as immoral, someone who supports abortion, gay marriage, got our soldiers killed in Benghazi, thought she was above the law and had her own private server which she sent classified emails from, then tried to hide it by erasing files and smashing phones. I say Trump as an egomaniac and a narcissist, and someone who had done some immoral things in the past with women, but who claimed he had become a Christian since then. I voted for him. Since he has been in office I haven't seen him cheat on his wife, although some earlier scandals have come to light from before he said he became a Christian. I have seen him keep his promises as best he could, support prolife ideals, put conservative judges on the supreme court, and fight to prevent illegal aliens from overwhelming our borders.
If you feel you had to vote, there were other people to vote for. You didn't have to vote for Trump. Plenty people voted their conscience and chose another candidate even if they knew that the person had no chance of winning.
Originally posted by Sparko View PostI respect Timothy's view on Trump and don't question his sincerity or his faith. I just wish he could do the same with us. ...You know, what liberals always preach: Tolerance?
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Originally posted by Teallaura View PostWe can reasonably conclude he's not evangelical in the formal sense but beyond that I think it's all speculation.
I didn't vote for him on this basis so politically, not an issue. As a Christian...The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Just don't vote - in a democratic republic voting isn't just a right - it's a civic duty. I don't recall any Scripture that says neglect your civic duties absent a clear violation of God's law.
Vote third party - also an abdication of civic duty when done as a mere token.
A former womanizer who credibly claims to have reformed (which also describes B. Clinton in 1992 - not a sure thing). A lifelong advocate of killing the unborn. Some name on a ballot that won't even get a single electoral vote. Stay home and browse Netflix.
There's only one moral choice on that list - and it ain't Netflix."He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot
"Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman
My Personal Blog
My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)
Quill Sword
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Originally posted by Teallaura View PostJust don't vote - in a democratic republic voting isn't just a right - it's a civic duty. I don't recall any Scripture that says neglect your civic duties absent a clear violation of God's law.
Vote third party - also an abdication of civic duty when done as a mere token.
A former womanizer who credibly claims to have reformed (which also describes B. Clinton in 1992). A lifelong advocate of killing the unborn. Some name on a ballot that won't even get a single electoral vote. Stay home and browse Netflix.
There's only one moral choice on that list - and it ain't Netflix.
Personally I side with Henry David Thoreau who stated,
But I think that goes too far for most people. I believe that if you feel it your duty to vote, then vote your conscience, and voting your conscience can and does include third party candidates.
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Originally posted by Adrift View PostI disagree. In a hypothetical world where you are given the option of voting between Stalin or Mao, your choice not to vote, your choice to NOT be part of a system you believe to be unfair, or unjust, or where the candidates are non-starters, is a perfectly valid choice. In nations where voting is non-compulsory, voting is a right, but not a civic duty.
Personally I side with Henry David Thoreau who stated,
But I think that goes too far for most people. I believe that if you feel it your duty to vote, then vote your conscience, and voting your conscience can and does include those third party participants candidates.
In many of these small town elections, a candidate can win by 15 or 20 -- or even 1 or 2 -- votes.
Of course, it's possible to vote for the local issues and candidates and NOT vote for POTUS, but, hey, while I'm there...The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by Adrift View PostI disagree. In a hypothetical world where you are given the option of voting between Stalin or Mao, your choice not to vote, your choice to NOT be part of a system you believe to be unfair, or unjust, or where the candidates are non-starters, is a perfectly valid choice. In nations where voting is non-compulsory, voting is a right, but not a civic duty.
Personally I side with Henry David Thoreau who stated,
But I think that goes too far for most people. I believe that if you feel it your duty to vote, then vote your conscience, and voting your conscience can and does include third party candidates.
In this case we have Casanova and Mao - and not voting means possibly putting a killer in power versus having a Lothario in charge."He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot
"Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman
My Personal Blog
My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)
Quill Sword
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostOne thing that's kinda being overlooked -- when you go to vote, it's not just POTUS on the line. In most communities there are local officials on the ballot, ballot initiatives, tax levies, judges, county commissioners, and matters that actually do affect you "at home".
In many of these small town elections, a candidate can win by 15 or 20 -- or even 1 or 2 -- votes.
Of course, it's possible to vote for the local issues and candidates and NOT vote for POTUS, but, hey, while I'm there...
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Originally posted by Teallaura View PostWhen you believe the third party candidate is best I agree. When you're using it as a way to avoid a difficult choice, no, it's not a conscientious choice.
In this case we have Casanova and Mao - and not voting means possibly putting a killer in power versus having a Lothario in charge.
A Christian may reason that voting Trump president comes with consequences far greater than the immediate now. Yes, you may win the battle on abortion today, but what will it cost you in the long run? A concern may arise among some Christians that if people see us as hypocrites for choosing an otherwise corrupt leader, that we will lose the opportunity for evangelism. That when the tables flip, and a new president is in office, we may eventually lose our gains, and then some. That we will have traded the one who destroys the body for the one who destroys the body and the soul.
Now that isn't to say that I believe that people were WRONG for feeling they had no choice but Trump. I fully sympathize with the predicament a lot of people felt they were in there, but I also think that there are justifiable reasons for people to have chosen a third party candidate that they felt better aligned with their own values, or to have chosen not to be a part of the process altogether.
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