Christians and Trump--two perspectives

[Cerebrum123]

How bout the unipotty? Give it a New England flair.

Even more accurate since both parties are full of crap.

[Cow Poke]

Even more accurate since both parties are full of crap.

unkept promises.jpg

[Thoughtful Monk]

I've had a couple days to think about this more. While I agree that Christians should be involved in the political process, I'm getting more convinced that the Kingdom of God will not be voted in. Maybe we can get a slightly better world if the correct politician is elected. None of them are Christ. The Kingdom of God will only arrive when Christ returns to rule and reign.

Just watching the prolife movement for the past couple years has been instructive. They did get a good deed done by getting Roe v Wade repealed. However, I also see, that pro-life isn't suddenly the view of the people. I think the pro-life movement needs to start putting more effort into changing hearts and minds now. I won't abandon the political process. I just think it is reaching a point where increasing energy into it will produce less and less results. It the old saying, "You can't legislate morality."

Random thought: I think a few Christian supporters of Trump are guilty of idolatry. From my Christian perspective, he's probably the better choice than Biden. Unfortunately, I also think choosing between Trump and Biden is like being asked "do you wish to be executed by hanging or firing squad?"

[Cow Poke]

I've had a couple days to think about this more. While I agree that Christians should be involved in the political process, I'm getting more convinced that the Kingdom of God will not be voted in. Maybe we can get a slightly better world if the correct politician is elected. None of them are Christ. The Kingdom of God will only arrive when Christ returns to rule and reign.

Just watching the prolife movement for the past couple years has been instructive. They did get a good deed done by getting Roe v Wade repealed. However, I also see, that pro-life isn't suddenly the view of the people. I think the pro-life movement needs to start putting more effort into changing hearts and minds now. I won't abandon the political process. I just think it is reaching a point where increasing energy into it will produce less and less results. It the old saying, "You can't legislate morality."

Random thought: I think a few Christian supporters of Trump are guilty of idolatry. From my Christian perspective, he's probably the better choice than Biden. Unfortunately, I also think choosing between Trump and Biden is like being asked "do you wish to be executed by hanging or firing squad?"

I see Trump as the useful idiot - the ass God used to speak to Balaam - the sinful slimy firefighter who shows up to put out the fire in my house....

Regardless of who sits in the White House (when Biden can remember where he is, and that Kamala is NOT the President) God is still on His Throne.

I don't get all bitter and hate-filled and absolutely obsessed with either Biden or Trump to where either of them lives rent-free in my head.

It won't be long before both Trump and Biden are in the grave, and God will still be on His Throne.

[Thoughtful Monk]

I see Trump as the useful idiot - the ass God used to speak to Balaam - the sinful slimy firefighter who shows up to put out the fire in my house....

Regardless of who sits in the White House (when Biden can remember where he is, and that Kamala is NOT the President) God is still on His Throne.

I don't get all bitter and hate-filled and absolutely obsessed with either Biden or Trump to where either of them lives rent-free in my head.

It won't be long before both Trump and Biden are in the grave, and God will still be on His Throne.

I agree with you. I'll be glad when both have taken their final bows and exited the stage.

I'd like to think whoever comes after Trump-Biden will be better. However, in the words of the great philosopher Bill Cosby: "Never tempt worse."

[Cow Poke]

I agree with you. I'll be glad when both have taken their final bows and exited the stage.

I'd like to think whoever comes after Trump-Biden will be better. However, in the words of the great philosopher Bill Cosby: "Never tempt worse."

Meanwhile, the sun still comes up in the morning, the birds still sing, my grandchildren still delight me, I love breakfasts with my wife (especially while watching the sunrise), and I don't even have the slightest contempt for those who are absolutely obsessed with Trump.

[One Bad Pig]

Yeah, that isn't what happened. Nice try though. I don't need to manufacture outrage. January 6th happened, and one side wants to minimize what happened. Whatever. Believe whatever you want. The facts don't care about your feelings, and all that. Have a nice day.

Right back atcha, champ. There is indeed a side which wants to minimize what happened. I'm not on that side. There is also a side which wants to exaggerate what happened. I'm not on that side either. I agree, the facts don't care about my feelings - which is why I'm going to decline your offer to believe whatever I want.

January 6th happened. It was a riot. It was stupid, and those who took part merited punishment - in line with the punishment received by other rioters, both there and elsewhere. Calling it an insurrection is an insult to the very idea of an insurrection. the "insurrectionists" didn't kill anybody, didn't even attempt to kill anybody, didn't attempt to disrupt - much less overthrow - the government, didn't attempt to even take anyone hostage, generally respected, rather than destroyed, government property once they got inside....

I stand by my earlier assessment, your emotively dismissive reply notwithstanding. The irony of you accusing me of going by my feelings is rich indeed.

[Cow Poke]

Right back atcha, champ. There is indeed a side which wants to minimize what happened. I'm not on that side. There is also a side which wants to exaggerate what happened. I'm not on that side either. I agree, the facts don't care about my feelings - which is why I'm going to decline your offer to believe whatever I want.

January 6th happened. It was a riot. It was stupid, and those who took part merited punishment - in line with the punishment received by other rioters, both there and elsewhere. Calling it an insurrection is an insult to the very idea of an insurrection. the "insurrectionists" didn't kill anybody, didn't even attempt to kill anybody, didn't attempt to disrupt - much less overthrow - the government, didn't attempt to even take anyone hostage, generally respected, rather than destroyed, government property once they got inside....

I stand by my earlier assessment, your emotively dismissive reply notwithstanding. The irony of you accusing me of going by my feelings is rich indeed.

Much better said that I would have said it.

[KingsGambit]

Right back atcha, champ. There is indeed a side which wants to minimize what happened. I'm not on that side. There is also a side which wants to exaggerate what happened. I'm not on that side either. I agree, the facts don't care about my feelings - which is why I'm going to decline your offer to believe whatever I want.

January 6th happened. It was a riot. It was stupid, and those who took part merited punishment - in line with the punishment received by other rioters, both there and elsewhere. Calling it an insurrection is an insult to the very idea of an insurrection. the "insurrectionists" didn't kill anybody, didn't even attempt to kill anybody, didn't attempt to disrupt - much less overthrow - the government, didn't attempt to even take anyone hostage, generally respected, rather than destroyed, government property once they got inside....

I stand by my earlier assessment, your emotively dismissive reply notwithstanding. The irony of you accusing me of going by my feelings is rich indeed.

I don't think I agree with the notion that it wasn't supposed to disrupt the government. The practical effect was to delay the certification of the results (and the correlation is likely with the private pressuring of Pence not to accept them). This is a milder claim than outright overthrowing it, of course.

[KingsGambit]

Just watching the prolife movement for the past couple years has been instructive. They did get a good deed done by getting Roe v Wade repealed. However, I also see, that pro-life isn't suddenly the view of the people. I think the pro-life movement needs to start putting more effort into changing hearts and minds now. I won't abandon the political process. I just think it is reaching a point where increasing energy into it will produce less and less results. It the old saying, "You can't legislate morality."

The battleground for the pro-life movement seems to be shifting to a local level anyway with Trump declining to endorse a national ban. (In fairness to him, it probably is politically impossible anyway and he knows it.) I daresay most of us can probably do more to prevent abortions to do what CP's church does on the ground anyway than to hope our vote changes it.

[One Bad Pig]

I don't think I agree with the notion that it wasn't supposed to disrupt the government. The practical effect was to delay the certification of the results (and the correlation is likely with the private pressuring of Pence not to accept them). This is a milder claim than outright overthrowing it, of course.

Fair enough. There have been other recent similar levels of disruption which are not typically equated with insurrection, however.

[KingsGambit]

Fair enough. There have been other recent similar levels of disruption which are not typically equated with insurrection, however.

I think there was some sort of incident on the state level in Tennessee that did lead to a couple of state legislators being expelled.

[Thoughtful Monk]

The battleground for the pro-life movement seems to be shifting to a local level anyway with Trump declining to endorse a national ban. (In fairness to him, it probably is politically impossible anyway and he knows it.) I daresay most of us can probably do more to prevent abortions to do what CP's church does on the ground anyway than to hope our vote changes it.

Well said. Especially in the People's Democratic Republic of New York, there's no chance that the Legislator would pass any form of abortion restrictions, much less Governor Hochul actually signing the bill. We should be politically involved enough to say, "We don't agree with what the government is doing." while focusing on changing hearts and minds.

[Sparko]

Meanwhile, the sun still comes up in the morning, the birds still sing, my grandchildren still delight me, I love breakfasts with my wife (especially while watching the sunrise), and I don't even have the slightest contempt for those who are absolutely obsessed with Trump.

I think having three branches of government and presidential term limits and the terms only 4 years is probably the best thing the US has going for it. No one person can make too many changes or take too much power in that amount of time. It causes some gridlock, but that's better than having to deal with the same leaders on an ongoing basis, like Canada has to deal with.

[One Bad Pig]

Food for thought:

[E]very one of us as a Christian, as an anointed one, as someone who has the Holy Spirit working within us and through us, carries the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of God, with us wherever we go. And a lot of times this gets expressed negatively, when it’s talked about in popular circles. This is “The Holy Spirit dwells in you. Are you going to go into a movie theater at an R-rated movie!?” or “Are you going to hang out with these ne’er-do-wells? Are you going to smoke and chew and dance with girls who do?” And there is precedent for that. I say that obviously with some levity, but St. Paul comes out and asks, “Will you join the members of Christ to a prostitute?” so there is biblical warrant for that kind of negative approach to that.

But I think very neglected and more important is the positive element of that, that bringing the Spirit of God with us out into the world, out of paradise and out into the world—the world where there is chaos, the world where there is death, the world where there is darkness—is like carrying a candle with us out into the darkness, like carrying a torch with us out into the darkness. This is what I think St. John is getting at in 1 John 4:4, when he says, “Greater is he who is in me than he who is in the world.” There’s a lot of spirits out there in the world, but the one who is within us is greater and more powerful infinitely than any of them.

So on a very practical level, when we come into a place, into a community, into our families, into our workplaces, into our school communities, whatever it is—when we come there and we bring the Holy Spirit with us, not just sort of de facto because we identify as Christians, but in the sense that we’re working in repentance and faith to bring out and bring to maturity the fruit of the Spirit in our life, that that presence and activity of the Holy Spirit begins to transform the communities and the world around us, in precisely this way: by driving out those other spirits, by driving out those other agencies, those other principalities and powers, those other things that are acting upon us and the people we love and the people we work with and the people we spend time with. It pushes them out and replaces them with the presence of God himself.

When we bring love into a situation where there is hatred and bitterness and anger, and it’s real love—it’s not us saying platitudes, it’s not us saying, “Hey, can’t we all just love each other? Don’t worry, be happy,” but manifesting the love of God toward people, the real, deep love and compassion and kindness and care of God toward people; when we bring a real sense of peace and we make peace between people, then the spirit that’s been there, putting people at odds with each other, spirits of dissension and bitterness, they’re driven out. Then, behold how good and how pleasant it is for brethren to dwell together in unity. And this is the concrete way— It is concrete. We can’t change the world in the sense that I can point my finger by magic at a chair and turn it into a table, but, as we’ve talked about, the world we all live in is made up more of our perceptions and intuitions and experiences than it is those hard and fast things that we can’t change.

So through just one person who’s honestly striving every day to follow Christ, both in keeping commandments and in repenting when not— One of the most powerful ways to completely transform a social dynamic is to apologize, to actually accept the blame for our failures, to actually be honest about them and apologize. So repentance is a big part of this, too. But one person doing that can transform a whole system, can transform a whole workplace, can transform a whole dynamic. And it’s when we do that that people see Christ in us. It’s when we do that, not win arguments, that people are drawn to find Christ in his Church, and as they do that they start to become Christians as well, and they start to make an honest effort to follow Christ. And some of us who have been Christians our whole lives but maybe aren’t making an honest effort right now are inspired by seeing those who do to start making further efforts ourselves.

And slowly, slowly, piece by piece, big systems can be transformed. If you don’t believe that’s true, I will once again point you to history, where a bunch of peasants and fishermen, in a backwater of the Roman Empire—it took them 300 years, but—completely transformed society, culture, politics, everything, just by each one of them being willing to follow Christ, whether that meant life or death, whether that meant glory or dishonor, but they made that honest effort every day. And through them the Spirit—the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of God—came to fill a whole empire and change it. And it can do that again, but we don’t start by trying to stage some kind of Christian revolution. We’ve seen how that goes. We do that by each of us, in our place, in the place where God has put us—in the family he’s put us in, in the occupation he’s put us in, in the church community he’s put us in—making these everyday, day-to-day efforts to love, to be at peace, to experience real joy, to be kind, to be good, to be gentle, to be faithful, to exercise self-control.

We as Christians will have far more impact if we simply make the collective effort to live our lives for Christ, manifesting the fruits of the Spirit, than by championing this or that politician ("put not your trust in princes or sons of men, in whom there is no salvation") or party who will make laws in accordance with what we want or making "seeker sensitive" churches which attempt to look enticing to the world in order to draw people in.