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Thread: Is Homosexuality a "worse sin" than other sins?

  1. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by KingsGambit View Post
    As for the actual OP, I know Robert Gagnon (the Presbyterian Bible scholar mostly known for his defense of the claim that homosexuality is a sin) does argue that it's one of the worst of sins, but I haven't read any of his books so I don't know his argument.
    I read one, but quite a few years ago. I don't recall anything from it.

    He has material online -- here and here, for instance.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cow Poke View Post
    First, I know that "sin is sin", and that the same author who said....

    But, a friend asked me about Beth Moore's latest controversy where she, apparently, deleted a section from a reprint of one of her books, and the newly published Kindle version.

    (Got back in town, so I'm brushing up on this -- I can't post the link, because it's full of profanity, but it comes from a Patheos source)

    the section in question...

    Before we proceed to our Scripture-prayers for overcoming sexual strongholds, we are wise to address another deadly sexual assault of the evil one in our society: homosexuality. I have wonderful news for anyone who has struggled with homosexual sin. God indeed can deliver you and anxiously awaits your full cooperation. Do not let Satan shame you into not seeking forgiveness, fullness, and complete restoration in Jesus Christ. I know complete transformation is possible not only because God’s Word says so, but because I have witnessed it with my own eyes. I know plenty of believers who have been set free from homosexuality.


    Apparently, she's being blasted from the Right for taking this passage out, and criticized by the Left for not being able to directly address the topic "as sin".

    Meanwhile - and I haven't caught up with this yet - there is movement in the SBC to 'lessen' the impact of 'homosexuality is sin". Not sure what that's all about.

    My position has been - as a number of us have stated numerous times - that it's not a sin to have homosexual thoughts or desires, but it is a sin to act on them, and particularly to take PRIDE in them.

    In fact, I'm thinking that that's why homosexuality is often considered a "worse sin", because it is so often coupled with PRIDE, and the resulting "marriage" to a same sex person becomes a declaration of defiance to God.

    We don't find a sexual predator (who wants to be respected) BOASTING of his sin, or an adulterer BOASTING of his sin.... or a thief boasting of his thievery....

    Is there any other sin that a person takes PRIDE in, while wanting to be considered, for example, a "practicing Christian"?
    I found an article just yesterday you might like to read:

    The Bible Doesn’t Say That Homosexuality is a Sin:
    An Analysis of the Seven Scriptures Sometimes Claimed to Refer to Homosexuality


    Here are some clips:

    Clip One:

    "Does the Bible actually condemn caring, consensual homosexual relationships? What
    was the original intent of these laws, lessons and guidelines written in the Bible so long ago?
    This booklet examines seven scripture passages sometimes quoted that appear to some
    individuals to take a negative view of homosexuality. The work of several authors will be used
    who have studied the Greek or Hebrew words that appeared in the original texts. In addition,
    these authors have taken into consideration the customs, beliefs, religions and cultures of the
    time the Bible was written, in order to explain the original intent of the authors, as they wrote the
    laws and stories of the Bible centuries ago."

    Clip Two:

    SUMMARY of Each of the Seven Scriptures Sometimes Claimed to Refer to
    Homosexuality:

    As we have seen, the seven Scriptures sometimes claimed to be about homosexuality are not at
    all related to the consensual, committed homosexual relationships we see today.

    1. Genesis 19:1-14, 24-26: The story of Sodom and Gomorrah is an example of what
    happens when God’s people do not live up to God’s expectations. It is teaching a lesson
    about the importance of hospitality to the stranger. The cruel men of the town were
    planning to rape the visitors and were definitely not homosexuals.

    2. Judges 19:1-30: This story parallels that of Sodom and Gomorrah and provides an
    example of how the townspeople plot to rape the visitor. It is yet another example for the
    ancient Jewish culture of how not to act by showing the extreme inhospitable behavior of
    the town. Some mistakenly interpret the townsmen’s behavior to be somehow related to
    homosexuality, but this was an example of the brutality of one group of men toward a
    group of visitors.

    3. Leviticus 18:22 and …

    4. Leviticus 20:13: These texts state that a man should not lie with another man, and that if
    they do it is an abomination. The rules were meant to set the Israelites apart from the
    Canaanites and Egyptians who at that time participated in fertility rites in their temples
    that involved different forms of sex, including homosexual sex. Male-to-male sex was
    seen to mix the roles of man and woman and such “mixing of kinds” during ancient times
    was defined as an “abomination,” in the same way that mixing different kinds of seeds in
    a field was an abomination. This scripture occurs in a section of Leviticus called “The
    Holiness Code” which has as its main purpose to set out laws to keep Israel different
    from the surrounding cultures. (Helminiak, pg. 54)

    5. Romans 1:18-27: The behavior Paul was addressing here is explicitly associated with
    idol worship (probably temple prostitution) and with heterosexual people who searched
    for pleasure and broke away from their natural sexual orientation or their natural ways of
    having sex (both male and female) and participated in promiscuous sex with anyone
    available or used methods not culturally accepted. (Miner & Connoley, pg. 14) In the
    surrounding culture it was common for men of a higher status to take sexual advantage of
    male slaves or male prostitutes. Here Paul is instructing his readers to keep pure and
    honor God. Paul is talking about the use and misuse of power and authority and how that
    impacts one’s relationship with God. (Dwyer, pg. 58) Paul didn’t have in mind
    specifically prohibiting consensual same-sex relationships because they were never
    considered in his cultural context.


    6. I Corinthians 6:9-10: Paul’s list of sinners includes malakoi and arsenokoites. Malakoi
    means “soft” and is also interpreted as male prostitutes. Arsenokoites is difficult to
    translate, but it probably refers to a male using his superiority to take sexual advantage of
    another male. Paul is right to condemn these sexual activities, but this has nothing to do
    with a consensual homosexual relationship.

    7. I Timothy 1:8-11: This passage is similar to I Corinthians, above. This time it is a list of
    sins (as opposed to sinners) and includes the words pornos, arsenokoites and
    andrapodistes. Pornos most likely refers to a male having sex outside of marriage.
    Arsenokoites can probably be defined as male same-sex relationships that involved some
    level of exploitation, inequality or abuse. Andrapodistes can be translated as “slave
    traders.” Scholars believe that the three terms were used together in that slave dealers
    (andrapodistes) would be acting as pimps for captured boys (pornos) who would be
    taken advantage of by powerful men (arsenokoites). (Brownson, pg. 274) These are sins
    that certainly need to be addressed, but this Bible passage does not relate to homosexuals
    in a committed relationship.

    http://www.rmnetwork.org/newrmn/wp-c...Sept.-2016.pdf
    Last edited by Christian3; 07-14-2019 at 10:07 AM.

  4. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by Christian3 View Post
    I found an article just yesterday you might like to read:

    The Bible Doesn’t Say That Homosexuality is a Sin:
    An Analysis of the Seven Scriptures Sometimes Claimed to Refer to Homosexuality
    Why would Cow Poke like to read sterling examples of eisegesis? They are valiant attempts to validate homosexual relationships, but they fall far short of convincing.
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  5. Amen Teallaura, Cerebrum123 amen'd this post.
  6. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by One Bad Pig View Post
    Why would Cow Poke like to read sterling examples of eisegesis? They are valiant attempts to validate homosexual relationships, but they fall far short of convincing.
    I thought the article had merit.

    I talked to a Rabbi about homosexuality referring to this verse:

    Leviticus 18:22:

    22 You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is an abomination.

    The Rabbi said it was too ambiguous and that Rabbis were allowed to be Gay and Gay soldiers were allowed in the military.

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    tWebber Teallaura's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Christian3 View Post
    I thought the article had merit.

    I talked to a Rabbi about homosexuality referring to this verse:

    Leviticus 18:22:

    22 You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is an abomination.

    The Rabbi said it was too ambiguous and that Rabbis were allowed to be Gay and Gay soldiers were allowed in the military.
    Ambiguous? Are you kidding?

  8. Amen Cerebrum123, DesertBerean amen'd this post.
  9. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by One Bad Pig View Post
    Why would Cow Poke like to read sterling examples of eisegesis?
    EGGzackly. And the answer would be 'he wouldn't'. And, yes, that's my final answer, no need do call a friend or poll the audience.

    They are valiant attempts to validate homosexual relationships, but they fall far short of convincing.
    This is, of course, what Tassman claims Buttigieg is doing, though there's no evidence of which I am aware where Buttigieg ever attempted to reference the Bible on these matters at all.

    I didn't really scan the list - does it include the "homosexual relationship" between David and Jonathan?
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    It might be possible for the sake of argument that one or two of the seven homosexuality verses refer to something else. But there's no way all seven do. That's why the common tack of chipping away at individual verses doesn't go very far.
    For what was given to everyone for the use of all, you have taken for your exclusive use. The earth belongs not to the rich, but to everyone. - Ambrose, 4th century AD

    All cruelty springs from weakness. - Seneca the Younger

  11. Amen Teallaura, Cow Poke, Sparko, Cerebrum123 amen'd this post.
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    Yes, homosexuality is one of the worst sins. In fact, all the death penalty sins from the Old Testament would rank pretty high up on the list, although among those, some would still be considered worse than others.

    No, "gluttony" is not a sin.

  13. Amen Teallaura amen'd this post.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Christian3 View Post
    I found an article just yesterday you might like to read:

    The Bible Doesn’t Say That Homosexuality is a Sin:
    An Analysis of the Seven Scriptures Sometimes Claimed to Refer to Homosexuality


    Here are some clips:

    Clip One:

    "Does the Bible actually condemn caring, consensual homosexual relationships? What
    was the original intent of these laws, lessons and guidelines written in the Bible so long ago?
    This booklet examines seven scripture passages sometimes quoted that appear to some
    individuals to take a negative view of homosexuality. The work of several authors will be used
    who have studied the Greek or Hebrew words that appeared in the original texts. In addition,
    these authors have taken into consideration the customs, beliefs, religions and cultures of the
    time the Bible was written, in order to explain the original intent of the authors, as they wrote the
    laws and stories of the Bible centuries ago."

    Clip Two:

    SUMMARY of Each of the Seven Scriptures Sometimes Claimed to Refer to
    Homosexuality:

    As we have seen, the seven Scriptures sometimes claimed to be about homosexuality are not at
    all related to the consensual, committed homosexual relationships we see today.

    1. Genesis 19:1-14, 24-26: The story of Sodom and Gomorrah is an example of what
    happens when God’s people do not live up to God’s expectations. It is teaching a lesson
    about the importance of hospitality to the stranger. The cruel men of the town were
    planning to rape the visitors and were definitely not homosexuals.

    2. Judges 19:1-30: This story parallels that of Sodom and Gomorrah and provides an
    example of how the townspeople plot to rape the visitor. It is yet another example for the
    ancient Jewish culture of how not to act by showing the extreme inhospitable behavior of
    the town. Some mistakenly interpret the townsmen’s behavior to be somehow related to
    homosexuality, but this was an example of the brutality of one group of men toward a
    group of visitors.

    3. Leviticus 18:22 and …

    4. Leviticus 20:13: These texts state that a man should not lie with another man, and that if
    they do it is an abomination. The rules were meant to set the Israelites apart from the
    Canaanites and Egyptians who at that time participated in fertility rites in their temples
    that involved different forms of sex, including homosexual sex. Male-to-male sex was
    seen to mix the roles of man and woman and such “mixing of kinds” during ancient times
    was defined as an “abomination,” in the same way that mixing different kinds of seeds in
    a field was an abomination. This scripture occurs in a section of Leviticus called “The
    Holiness Code” which has as its main purpose to set out laws to keep Israel different
    from the surrounding cultures. (Helminiak, pg. 54)

    5. Romans 1:18-27: The behavior Paul was addressing here is explicitly associated with
    idol worship (probably temple prostitution) and with heterosexual people who searched
    for pleasure and broke away from their natural sexual orientation or their natural ways of
    having sex (both male and female) and participated in promiscuous sex with anyone
    available or used methods not culturally accepted. (Miner & Connoley, pg. 14) In the
    surrounding culture it was common for men of a higher status to take sexual advantage of
    male slaves or male prostitutes. Here Paul is instructing his readers to keep pure and
    honor God. Paul is talking about the use and misuse of power and authority and how that
    impacts one’s relationship with God. (Dwyer, pg. 58) Paul didn’t have in mind
    specifically prohibiting consensual same-sex relationships because they were never
    considered in his cultural context.


    6. I Corinthians 6:9-10: Paul’s list of sinners includes malakoi and arsenokoites. Malakoi
    means “soft” and is also interpreted as male prostitutes. Arsenokoites is difficult to
    translate, but it probably refers to a male using his superiority to take sexual advantage of
    another male. Paul is right to condemn these sexual activities, but this has nothing to do
    with a consensual homosexual relationship.

    7. I Timothy 1:8-11: This passage is similar to I Corinthians, above. This time it is a list of
    sins (as opposed to sinners) and includes the words pornos, arsenokoites and
    andrapodistes. Pornos most likely refers to a male having sex outside of marriage.
    Arsenokoites can probably be defined as male same-sex relationships that involved some
    level of exploitation, inequality or abuse. Andrapodistes can be translated as “slave
    traders.” Scholars believe that the three terms were used together in that slave dealers
    (andrapodistes) would be acting as pimps for captured boys (pornos) who would be
    taken advantage of by powerful men (arsenokoites). (Brownson, pg. 274) These are sins
    that certainly need to be addressed, but this Bible passage does not relate to homosexuals
    in a committed relationship.

    http://www.rmnetwork.org/newrmn/wp-c...Sept.-2016.pdf
    Does the author make any attempt to address the facts that

    1) There are NO passages that AFFIRM same-sex sexual relationships, and

    2) There are multiple passages that, whether or not they are "about" homosexuality, do *involve* homosexuality, and all are negative?
    Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

    Beige Nationalist.

    "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

  15. Amen Cow Poke, Teallaura amen'd this post.

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