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orthodox Christians only.
Discussion on matters of general mainstream evangelical Christian theology that do not fit within Theology 201. Have some spiritual gifts ceased today? Is the KJV the only viable translation for the church today? In what sense are the books of the bible inspired and what are those books? Church government? Modern day prophets and apostles?
This forum is primarily for Christians to discuss matters of Christian doctrine, and is not the area for debate between atheists (or those opposing orthodox Christianity) and Christians. Inquiring atheists (or sincere seekers/doubters/unorthodox) seeking only Christian participation and having demonstrated a manner that does not seek to undermine the orthodox Christian faith of others are also welcome, but must seek Moderator permission first. When defining “Christian” or "orthodox" for purposes of this section, we mean persons holding to the core essentials of the historic Christian faith such as the Trinity, the Creatorship of God, the virgin birth, the bodily resurrection of Christ, the atonement, the future bodily return of Christ, the future bodily resurrection of the just and the unjust, and the final judgment. Persons not holding to these core doctrines are welcome to participate in the Comparative Religions section without restriction, in Theology 201 as regards to the nature of God and salvation with limited restrictions, and in Christology for issues surrounding the person of Christ and the Trinity. Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 forum without such restrictions.
Additionally and rarely, there may be some topics or lines of discussion that within the Moderator's discretion fall so outside the bounds of mainstream orthodox doctrine (in general Christian circles or in the TheologyWeb community) or that deny certain core values that are the Christian convictions of forum leadership that may be more appropriately placed within Unorthodox Theology 201. NO personal offense should be taken by such discretionary decision for none is intended. While inerrancy is NOT considered a requirement for posting in this section, a general respect for the Bible text and a respect for the inerrantist position of others is requested.
The Tweb rules apply here like they do everywhere at Tweb, if you haven't read them, now would be a good time.
Forum Rules: Here
Discussion on matters of general mainstream evangelical Christian theology that do not fit within Theology 201. Have some spiritual gifts ceased today? Is the KJV the only viable translation for the church today? In what sense are the books of the bible inspired and what are those books? Church government? Modern day prophets and apostles?
This forum is primarily for Christians to discuss matters of Christian doctrine, and is not the area for debate between atheists (or those opposing orthodox Christianity) and Christians. Inquiring atheists (or sincere seekers/doubters/unorthodox) seeking only Christian participation and having demonstrated a manner that does not seek to undermine the orthodox Christian faith of others are also welcome, but must seek Moderator permission first. When defining “Christian” or "orthodox" for purposes of this section, we mean persons holding to the core essentials of the historic Christian faith such as the Trinity, the Creatorship of God, the virgin birth, the bodily resurrection of Christ, the atonement, the future bodily return of Christ, the future bodily resurrection of the just and the unjust, and the final judgment. Persons not holding to these core doctrines are welcome to participate in the Comparative Religions section without restriction, in Theology 201 as regards to the nature of God and salvation with limited restrictions, and in Christology for issues surrounding the person of Christ and the Trinity. Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 forum without such restrictions.
Additionally and rarely, there may be some topics or lines of discussion that within the Moderator's discretion fall so outside the bounds of mainstream orthodox doctrine (in general Christian circles or in the TheologyWeb community) or that deny certain core values that are the Christian convictions of forum leadership that may be more appropriately placed within Unorthodox Theology 201. NO personal offense should be taken by such discretionary decision for none is intended. While inerrancy is NOT considered a requirement for posting in this section, a general respect for the Bible text and a respect for the inerrantist position of others is requested.
The Tweb rules apply here like they do everywhere at Tweb, if you haven't read them, now would be a good time.
Forum Rules: Here
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Is Homosexuality a "worse sin" than other sins?
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Pffft. I has more humbleness in my pinkie than the lot of ya got in all your bodies combined.
I'm always still in trouble again
"You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
"Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
"Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostYes, but you don't take as much pride in your humbleness as I do mine.
I'm always still in trouble again
"You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
"Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
"Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman
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"He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot
"Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman
My Personal Blog
My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)
Quill Sword
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Kendrick Lamar recently had a hit "Humble" that I most certainly can't link here."I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill
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Originally posted by KingsGambit View PostAs for the actual OP, I know Robert Gagnon (the Presbyterian Bible scholar mostly known for his defense of the claim that homosexuality is a sin) does argue that it's one of the worst of sins, but I haven't read any of his books so I don't know his argument.
He has material online -- here and here, for instance.Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.
Beige Federalist.
Nationalist Christian.
"Everybody is somebody's heretic."
Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.
Proud member of the this space left blank community.
Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.
Justice for Ashli Babbitt!
Justice for Matthew Perna!
Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostFirst, I know that "sin is sin", and that the same author who said....
But, a friend asked me about Beth Moore's latest controversy where she, apparently, deleted a section from a reprint of one of her books, and the newly published Kindle version.
(Got back in town, so I'm brushing up on this -- I can't post the link, because it's full of profanity, but it comes from a Patheos source)
the section in question...
Before we proceed to our Scripture-prayers for overcoming sexual strongholds, we are wise to address another deadly sexual assault of the evil one in our society: homosexuality. I have wonderful news for anyone who has struggled with homosexual sin. God indeed can deliver you and anxiously awaits your full cooperation. Do not let Satan shame you into not seeking forgiveness, fullness, and complete restoration in Jesus Christ. I know complete transformation is possible not only because God’s Word says so, but because I have witnessed it with my own eyes. I know plenty of believers who have been set free from homosexuality.
Apparently, she's being blasted from the Right for taking this passage out, and criticized by the Left for not being able to directly address the topic "as sin".
Meanwhile - and I haven't caught up with this yet - there is movement in the SBC to 'lessen' the impact of 'homosexuality is sin". Not sure what that's all about.
My position has been - as a number of us have stated numerous times - that it's not a sin to have homosexual thoughts or desires, but it is a sin to act on them, and particularly to take PRIDE in them.
In fact, I'm thinking that that's why homosexuality is often considered a "worse sin", because it is so often coupled with PRIDE, and the resulting "marriage" to a same sex person becomes a declaration of defiance to God.
We don't find a sexual predator (who wants to be respected) BOASTING of his sin, or an adulterer BOASTING of his sin.... or a thief boasting of his thievery....
Is there any other sin that a person takes PRIDE in, while wanting to be considered, for example, a "practicing Christian"?
The Bible Doesn’t Say That Homosexuality is a Sin:
An Analysis of the Seven Scriptures Sometimes Claimed to Refer to Homosexuality
Here are some clips:
Clip One:
"Does the Bible actually condemn caring, consensual homosexual relationships? What
was the original intent of these laws, lessons and guidelines written in the Bible so long ago?
This booklet examines seven scripture passages sometimes quoted that appear to some
individuals to take a negative view of homosexuality. The work of several authors will be used
who have studied the Greek or Hebrew words that appeared in the original texts. In addition,
these authors have taken into consideration the customs, beliefs, religions and cultures of the
time the Bible was written, in order to explain the original intent of the authors, as they wrote the
laws and stories of the Bible centuries ago."
Clip Two:
SUMMARY of Each of the Seven Scriptures Sometimes Claimed to Refer to
Homosexuality:
As we have seen, the seven Scriptures sometimes claimed to be about homosexuality are not at
all related to the consensual, committed homosexual relationships we see today.
1. Genesis 19:1-14, 24-26: The story of Sodom and Gomorrah is an example of what
happens when God’s people do not live up to God’s expectations. It is teaching a lesson
about the importance of hospitality to the stranger. The cruel men of the town were
planning to rape the visitors and were definitely not homosexuals.
2. Judges 19:1-30: This story parallels that of Sodom and Gomorrah and provides an
example of how the townspeople plot to rape the visitor. It is yet another example for the
ancient Jewish culture of how not to act by showing the extreme inhospitable behavior of
the town. Some mistakenly interpret the townsmen’s behavior to be somehow related to
homosexuality, but this was an example of the brutality of one group of men toward a
group of visitors.
3. Leviticus 18:22 and …
4. Leviticus 20:13: These texts state that a man should not lie with another man, and that if
they do it is an abomination. The rules were meant to set the Israelites apart from the
Canaanites and Egyptians who at that time participated in fertility rites in their temples
that involved different forms of sex, including homosexual sex. Male-to-male sex was
seen to mix the roles of man and woman and such “mixing of kinds” during ancient times
was defined as an “abomination,” in the same way that mixing different kinds of seeds in
a field was an abomination. This scripture occurs in a section of Leviticus called “The
Holiness Code” which has as its main purpose to set out laws to keep Israel different
from the surrounding cultures. (Helminiak, pg. 54)
5. Romans 1:18-27: The behavior Paul was addressing here is explicitly associated with
idol worship (probably temple prostitution) and with heterosexual people who searched
for pleasure and broke away from their natural sexual orientation or their natural ways of
having sex (both male and female) and participated in promiscuous sex with anyone
available or used methods not culturally accepted. (Miner & Connoley, pg. 14) In the
surrounding culture it was common for men of a higher status to take sexual advantage of
male slaves or male prostitutes. Here Paul is instructing his readers to keep pure and
honor God. Paul is talking about the use and misuse of power and authority and how that
impacts one’s relationship with God. (Dwyer, pg. 58) Paul didn’t have in mind
specifically prohibiting consensual same-sex relationships because they were never
considered in his cultural context.
6. I Corinthians 6:9-10: Paul’s list of sinners includes malakoi and arsenokoites. Malakoi
means “soft” and is also interpreted as male prostitutes. Arsenokoites is difficult to
translate, but it probably refers to a male using his superiority to take sexual advantage of
another male. Paul is right to condemn these sexual activities, but this has nothing to do
with a consensual homosexual relationship.
7. I Timothy 1:8-11: This passage is similar to I Corinthians, above. This time it is a list of
sins (as opposed to sinners) and includes the words pornos, arsenokoites and
andrapodistes. Pornos most likely refers to a male having sex outside of marriage.
Arsenokoites can probably be defined as male same-sex relationships that involved some
level of exploitation, inequality or abuse. Andrapodistes can be translated as “slave
traders.” Scholars believe that the three terms were used together in that slave dealers
(andrapodistes) would be acting as pimps for captured boys (pornos) who would be
taken advantage of by powerful men (arsenokoites). (Brownson, pg. 274) These are sins
that certainly need to be addressed, but this Bible passage does not relate to homosexuals
in a committed relationship.
http://www.rmnetwork.org/newrmn/wp-c...Sept.-2016.pdfLast edited by Christian3; 07-14-2019, 12:07 PM.
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Originally posted by Christian3 View PostI found an article just yesterday you might like to read:
The Bible Doesn’t Say That Homosexuality is a Sin:
An Analysis of the Seven Scriptures Sometimes Claimed to Refer to HomosexualityEnter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom
Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist
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Originally posted by One Bad Pig View PostWhy would Cow Poke like to read sterling examples of eisegesis? They are valiant attempts to validate homosexual relationships, but they fall far short of convincing.
I talked to a Rabbi about homosexuality referring to this verse:
Leviticus 18:22:
22 You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is an abomination.
The Rabbi said it was too ambiguous and that Rabbis were allowed to be Gay and Gay soldiers were allowed in the military.
Comment
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Originally posted by Christian3 View PostI thought the article had merit.
I talked to a Rabbi about homosexuality referring to this verse:
Leviticus 18:22:
22 You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is an abomination.
The Rabbi said it was too ambiguous and that Rabbis were allowed to be Gay and Gay soldiers were allowed in the military."He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot
"Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman
My Personal Blog
My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)
Quill Sword
Comment
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Originally posted by One Bad Pig View PostWhy would Cow Poke like to read sterling examples of eisegesis?
They are valiant attempts to validate homosexual relationships, but they fall far short of convincing.
I didn't really scan the list - does it include the "homosexual relationship" between David and Jonathan?The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
Comment
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It might be possible for the sake of argument that one or two of the seven homosexuality verses refer to something else. But there's no way all seven do. That's why the common tack of chipping away at individual verses doesn't go very far."I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill
Comment
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Yes, homosexuality is one of the worst sins. In fact, all the death penalty sins from the Old Testament would rank pretty high up on the list, although among those, some would still be considered worse than others.
No, "gluttony" is not a sin.
Comment
-
Originally posted by Christian3 View PostI found an article just yesterday you might like to read:
The Bible Doesn’t Say That Homosexuality is a Sin:
An Analysis of the Seven Scriptures Sometimes Claimed to Refer to Homosexuality
Here are some clips:
Clip One:
"Does the Bible actually condemn caring, consensual homosexual relationships? What
was the original intent of these laws, lessons and guidelines written in the Bible so long ago?
This booklet examines seven scripture passages sometimes quoted that appear to some
individuals to take a negative view of homosexuality. The work of several authors will be used
who have studied the Greek or Hebrew words that appeared in the original texts. In addition,
these authors have taken into consideration the customs, beliefs, religions and cultures of the
time the Bible was written, in order to explain the original intent of the authors, as they wrote the
laws and stories of the Bible centuries ago."
Clip Two:
SUMMARY of Each of the Seven Scriptures Sometimes Claimed to Refer to
Homosexuality:
As we have seen, the seven Scriptures sometimes claimed to be about homosexuality are not at
all related to the consensual, committed homosexual relationships we see today.
1. Genesis 19:1-14, 24-26: The story of Sodom and Gomorrah is an example of what
happens when God’s people do not live up to God’s expectations. It is teaching a lesson
about the importance of hospitality to the stranger. The cruel men of the town were
planning to rape the visitors and were definitely not homosexuals.
2. Judges 19:1-30: This story parallels that of Sodom and Gomorrah and provides an
example of how the townspeople plot to rape the visitor. It is yet another example for the
ancient Jewish culture of how not to act by showing the extreme inhospitable behavior of
the town. Some mistakenly interpret the townsmen’s behavior to be somehow related to
homosexuality, but this was an example of the brutality of one group of men toward a
group of visitors.
3. Leviticus 18:22 and …
4. Leviticus 20:13: These texts state that a man should not lie with another man, and that if
they do it is an abomination. The rules were meant to set the Israelites apart from the
Canaanites and Egyptians who at that time participated in fertility rites in their temples
that involved different forms of sex, including homosexual sex. Male-to-male sex was
seen to mix the roles of man and woman and such “mixing of kinds” during ancient times
was defined as an “abomination,” in the same way that mixing different kinds of seeds in
a field was an abomination. This scripture occurs in a section of Leviticus called “The
Holiness Code” which has as its main purpose to set out laws to keep Israel different
from the surrounding cultures. (Helminiak, pg. 54)
5. Romans 1:18-27: The behavior Paul was addressing here is explicitly associated with
idol worship (probably temple prostitution) and with heterosexual people who searched
for pleasure and broke away from their natural sexual orientation or their natural ways of
having sex (both male and female) and participated in promiscuous sex with anyone
available or used methods not culturally accepted. (Miner & Connoley, pg. 14) In the
surrounding culture it was common for men of a higher status to take sexual advantage of
male slaves or male prostitutes. Here Paul is instructing his readers to keep pure and
honor God. Paul is talking about the use and misuse of power and authority and how that
impacts one’s relationship with God. (Dwyer, pg. 58) Paul didn’t have in mind
specifically prohibiting consensual same-sex relationships because they were never
considered in his cultural context.
6. I Corinthians 6:9-10: Paul’s list of sinners includes malakoi and arsenokoites. Malakoi
means “soft” and is also interpreted as male prostitutes. Arsenokoites is difficult to
translate, but it probably refers to a male using his superiority to take sexual advantage of
another male. Paul is right to condemn these sexual activities, but this has nothing to do
with a consensual homosexual relationship.
7. I Timothy 1:8-11: This passage is similar to I Corinthians, above. This time it is a list of
sins (as opposed to sinners) and includes the words pornos, arsenokoites and
andrapodistes. Pornos most likely refers to a male having sex outside of marriage.
Arsenokoites can probably be defined as male same-sex relationships that involved some
level of exploitation, inequality or abuse. Andrapodistes can be translated as “slave
traders.” Scholars believe that the three terms were used together in that slave dealers
(andrapodistes) would be acting as pimps for captured boys (pornos) who would be
taken advantage of by powerful men (arsenokoites). (Brownson, pg. 274) These are sins
that certainly need to be addressed, but this Bible passage does not relate to homosexuals
in a committed relationship.
http://www.rmnetwork.org/newrmn/wp-c...Sept.-2016.pdf
1) There are NO passages that AFFIRM same-sex sexual relationships, and
2) There are multiple passages that, whether or not they are "about" homosexuality, do *involve* homosexuality, and all are negative?Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.
Beige Federalist.
Nationalist Christian.
"Everybody is somebody's heretic."
Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.
Proud member of the this space left blank community.
Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.
Justice for Ashli Babbitt!
Justice for Matthew Perna!
Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!
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