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The Green New Deal was never about climate change

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  • #16
    I didn't know CO2 had emotions.
    When I Survey....

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Faber View Post
      I didn't know CO2 had emotions.
      I think I'll turn auto-type off.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Faber View Post
        I didn't know CO2 had emotions.
        Now you do. Leonhard is a scientist.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by mikewhitney View Post
          Now you do. Leonhard is a scientist.
          Not these days, I'm just a humble IT-Consultant today.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View Post
            How is it a ‘diversion’ to ask why those that claim we’re all going to die if we don’t do something now, not living their lives in accordance to that belief? Do they truly believe it or do they merely use it as an ends to their own power? It’s always wise to question one’s motive who isn’t consistently following what they preach.
            You are mischaracterizing the aspects of the debate you mention, so it would be impossible to answer you in any productive way beyond simply noting that the reality of global warming and our need to do something about it is independent of the hypocrisy of any advocate or detractor.

            Jim
            Last edited by oxmixmudd; 07-14-2019, 02:36 PM.
            My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

            If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

            This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

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            • #21
              Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View Post
              The real question is, ‘why are the biggest advocates, so unwilling to change their own lifestyle, but expect others to do it?’
              Because people is peoples. Nobody wants to do anything if it inconvenciences. If you ask people "Should we change to renewable energy sources in the country" most people will say "Yes", if you ask them if they'd be willing to give "5$ per month", "50$ per month", "500$ per month", a lot of people will hesitate to even give anything.

              At any rate I've only seen you guys cite on and only one case and that's private jets used by government officials and business leaders.

              I can sympathize. Its bad optics. It really is. However, if we're going to be objective lilpixie, instead of being ruled by emotions and gut feelings, then its an objective fact that out of the total output of human CO2, those private jets represent a minority. And even if you're against it, the best way to deal with it simply cap and trade. Plenty of conservative thinkers have admitted that this is a rather weak argument against environmentalism. I remember Scott Adams (Dilbert cartoonist) who runs a Trump supporting podcast, had more than one podcast detailing why this just doesn't work as an argument.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
                Not these days, I'm just a humble IT-Consultant today.
                Consultant: Somebody who steals your watch, then charges you $200 an hour to tell you what time it is.



                The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

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                • #23
                  My biggest beef with the Green New Deal- alongside similar plans- is that they don't put much stock into Nuclear Power. They say, "They're open to It," which is the Activist/Politician equivalent of your mother saying, "Maybe," in response to whether or not you can go to your friend's house after school. In other words, I wouldn't stake my life on it if I were you.

                  Nuclear Power has come a LONG way since Chernobyl (the standard go-to for Anti-Nuclear fearmongering despite it's numerous OTHER problems), and to this day the Province of Ontario- the most populated province in Canada- gets 60% of it's power from a pair of Nuclear Reactors. I think if Climate Alarmists are serious, they'll start looking into Nuclear. It's not cheap, but it's also not a money pit like Wind and Solar.
                  Have You Touched Grass Today? If Not, Please Do.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Chaotic Void View Post
                    My biggest beef with the Green New Deal- alongside similar plans- is that they don't put much stock into Nuclear Power. They say, "They're open to It," which is the Activist/Politician equivalent of your mother saying, "Maybe," in response to whether or not you can go to your friend's house after school. In other words, I wouldn't stake my life on it if I were you.

                    Nuclear Power has come a LONG way since Chernobyl (the standard go-to for Anti-Nuclear fearmongering despite it's numerous OTHER problems), and to this day the Province of Ontario- the most populated province in Canada- gets 60% of it's power from a pair of Nuclear Reactors. I think if Climate Alarmists are serious, they'll start looking into Nuclear. It's not cheap, but it's also not a money pit like Wind and Solar.
                    Maybe!
                    The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                      Consultant: Somebody who steals your watch, then charges you $200 an hour to tell you what time it is.



                      Honestly, from day one we've been telling our client what they need to do so that they wouldn't need us.

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Chaotic Void View Post
                        My biggest beef with the Green New Deal- alongside similar plans- is that they don't put much stock into Nuclear Power.
                        "The U.S. Navy has sailed ships around the world for 60 years with nuclear power plants on them and we've never had an accident."

                        — John McCain on Monday, June 2nd, 2008 in a speech in Nashville, Tenn.


                        Politifact -

                        tom-true.jpg
                        The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Chaotic Void View Post
                          My biggest beef with the Green New Deal- alongside similar plans- is that they don't put much stock into Nuclear Power. They say, "They're open to It," which is the Activist/Politician equivalent of your mother saying, "Maybe," in response to whether or not you can go to your friend's house after school. In other words, I wouldn't stake my life on it if I were you.

                          Nuclear Power has come a LONG way since Chernobyl (the standard go-to for Anti-Nuclear fearmongering despite it's numerous OTHER problems), and to this day the Province of Ontario- the most populated province in Canada- gets 60% of it's power from a pair of Nuclear Reactors. I think if Climate Alarmists are serious, they'll start looking into Nuclear. It's not cheap, but it's also not a money pit like Wind and Solar.
                          Even the RBMK reactor design was quite a bungle even back then. It had no containment structure to speak of, the roofs were just tar coverings. The only thing separating the core from air, was a 1000 ton steel lid and then a roof you couldn't put anything heavy on. It was a nightmarishly bad reactor design. And even then, it only exploded because of severe mismanagement.

                          I've always been pro-nuclear. Though in Denmark its really difficult to get it built because we're such a small country that the upfront cost for developing the infrastructure really offsets any advantages. Germany on the other hand should be ashamed of themselves for pulling the plug on nuclear power. Its gonna delay their transition to renewable energy by at least two decades.

                          That's completely nuts.

                          But I think you guys underestimate just how scary Chernobyl was. The background radiation in Europe increased by a factor of two thousand for days on end. Radioactive Iodine-131 containing dust landed on grass that cows fed on. Farmers had to take them indoors, children couldn't play outside. My own mom stayed indoors a lot, as she was pregnant with me at the time. Imagine how the US would view nuclear power if one of the CANDU reactors (that also have a positive void coefficient like the RBMK reactors - albiet a lot smaller) went prompt critical and exploded, sending a heavy dust cloud down across the US, meaning farmers in the South had to pretty much cull an entire years worth of cattle, and free roaming livestock might not be edible for a couple of years in some states.

                          I think you guys would have a slightly different view of nuclear power, even though the fear wouldn't be entirely justified.

                          I believe Europe overreacted, and its lead to a complete public distruct of nuclear power. Though Finland is building nuclear power, and France has no plans on abandoning nuclear power either.
                          Last edited by Leonhard; 07-14-2019, 04:39 PM.

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
                            Even the RBMK reactor design was quite a bungle even back then. It had no containment structure to speak of, the roofs were just tar coverings. The only thing separating the core from air, was a 1000 ton steel lid and then a roof you couldn't put anything heavy on. It was a nightmarishly bad reactor design. And even then, it only exploded because of severe mismanagement.

                            I've always been pro-nuclear. Though in Denmark its really difficult to get it built because we're such a small country that the upfront cost for developing the infrastructure really offsets any advantages. Germany on the other hand should be ashamed of themselves for pulling the plug on nuclear power. Its gonna delay their transition to renewable energy by at least two decades.

                            That's completely nuts.
                            I think one of the major obstacles in the US, besides the cost, is the incredible regulatory environment. Sure, we want the reactors to be SAFE, but those who are going to design and build them can't wait 10-20 years for approvals and implementation.

                            I remember recently a discussion on the NRC "pre-approving" particular designs, which, if allowed, could speed up the process.

                            By the way, there's a (5 W AGN-201M) nuclear reactor at Texas A&M within an hour from my house, where they teach nuclear reactor operations and safety.
                            The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                              I think one of the major obstacles in the US, besides the cost, is the incredible regulatory environment. Sure, we want the reactors to be SAFE, but those who are going to design and build them can't wait 10-20 years for approvals and implementation.

                              I remember recently a discussion on the NRC "pre-approving" particular designs, which, if allowed, could speed up the process.
                              Well... its not the fifties anymore. You can't just build a factory, dump whatever waste you have into the river, call it a day. Or do like Cheminova did in Denmark and just put all their chemical wastes in sand dunes. I imagine there's a bit more process involved today in getting this stuff built. I think its not unreasonable to ask for a cradle to grave plan for these plants. And even what would happen in the worst possible scenario (typically a meltdown).

                              By the way, there's a (5 W AGN-201M) nuclear reactor at Texas A&M within an hour from my house, where they teach nuclear reactor operations and safety.
                              That's pretty cool.

                              Denmark had a small nuclear reactor as well. It went up to 500W. Was used to test all sorts of reactor fuels, and to build nuclear reactor operations expertise. Its closed now. The radioactive waste is stored in a warehouse, even the highly-active waste. Which I personally think is fine, I never understood the reason for carving out mountains, or putting it deep underground. Just put it in concrete cylinders and stick it on the surface. Its the cheapest, and we know where its at. And besides it doesn't take long for the radiation levels to drop down dramatically.

                              Here it is. Kinda reminds me of the American SL-1, which is an American reactor that also had prompt criticality like Chernobyl (though it only killed three operators).

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
                                You are mischaracterizing the aspects of the debate you mention, so it would be impossible to answer you in any productive way beyond simply noting that the reality of global warming and our need to do something about it is independent of the hypocrisy of any advocate or detractor.

                                Jim
                                How is that? Are those that say that we need to change our entire lives around, changing their entire lives around?
                                "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
                                GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

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