Trump proves he’s a racist.

[JimL]

Except that there are term limits. Trump is just another parenthesis in American history. Eventually that parenthesis closes. That'll be by next election, or more like five years from now.

Hitler had to be elected as well, until he made himself Fuhrer. And btw, only 30% of the electorate voted for him.

[Leonhard]

Hitler had to be elected as well, until he made himself Fuhrer.

I can't imagine any Conservatives either here, or in the rest of the US, who would be okay with Trump giving himself a third term. It was the Republican Party that established the two term limit, after Roosevelt had sat almost all the way through a third term.

And if the appointed Supreme Court Justices are criticized for being originalist, so much the worse, since the Founding Fathers of the United States also only sat for two terms, meaning there's quite a bit of precedent for it.

[JimL]

I can't imagine any Conservatives either here, or in the rest of the US, who would be okay with Trump giving himself a third term. It was the Republican Party that established the two term limit, after Roosevelt had sat almost all the way through a third term.

And if the appointed Supreme Court Justices are criticized for being originalist, so much the worse, since the Founding Fathers of the United States also only sat for two terms, meaning there's quite a bit of precedent for it.

Try harder!

[Leonhard]

Try harder!

I don't have to, I asked people here about it a long time ago. Unlike you I actually respect people here to tell me what they honestly believe, and there was wide consensus about that.

[Teallaura]

I can't imagine any Conservatives either here, or in the rest of the US, who would be okay with Trump giving himself a third term. It was the Republican Party that established the two term limit, after Roosevelt had sat almost all the way through a third term.

And if the appointed Supreme Court Justices are criticized for being originalist, so much the worse, since the Founding Fathers of the United States also only sat for two terms, meaning there's quite a bit of precedent for it.

Psst! Roosevelt finished his third term and was elected for a fourth - he died in office during that term.

[Teallaura]

He's not gone to a major war in his presidency. I'll count that as a big plus.

And hey even Nixon's presidency doesn't look as bad now that a generation of historians can look back on it dispassionately.

I remember one night just before Nixon resigned. I had walked up to the service station - I think to look at Christmas trees but I really couldn't say for sure. Anyway, I got into a conversation with a young man, probably college aged. I was a little kid. I said something negative about Nixon and he said basically that Nixon wasn't as bad as I thought.

When we look back we tend to think 'everyone' agreed about whatever - but that really wasn't the case for Nixon. It was several decades later, but eventually, I had to admit, he had a point.

[seer]

When we look back we tend to think 'everyone' agreed about whatever - but that really wasn't the case for Nixon. It was several decades later, but eventually, I had to admit, he had a point.

Well I never really stopped liking Nixon, he was the first President I voted for. We Marines really like him.

[lilpixieofterror]

You are not using logic there pix. You can pretend trump didnt spend several days stoking the fire against her in tweets, and you can pretend he didnt stand there soaking in the fruit of his efforts for 13 seconds, and you can pretend he didnt mock the entire episode in his 'apology' if you want to, but the reality is Trump caused it, worked hard to get it, and enjoyed it.

Yeah I am using your logic, you’re just too blinded by your own hatred to see. What’s funny is how blind you are because the very people you’re defending spent weeks doing the same exact thing and they got somebody to firebomb a government facility, in an attempt to kill US government employees. Your response, “AHHH!!!! TRUMP SAID MEAN THINGS!!!! HE’S LITERALLY HITLER!!!!” You’re trapped, in blind rage mode that you’re incapable of seeing your poor reasoning and even worse logic. Difference is while Trump supporters chant, these people’s supporters commit terrorist attacks.

As for the statements made by the congresswoman herself, i tend to be about as much against them as you or Trump. So I'm ckearly not a 'jew hater'

I see your blind rage still can’t help you see, let me help:

We must condemn everything Trump says or does or else we are ‘complicit in evil’ therefore, you must condemn everything they said or you hate Jews.

Your logic, not mine.

There is plenty of hate to go around pix. And plenty of conservative and Trump encouraged violence as well. That is why it is so irresponsible for Trump to do what he did on twitter and at that rally. What he is doing is raising the hatred and fear levels in this country, which will cause more violence on ALL sides.

One side chants at rallies and votes for conservatives, the other riots and commits acts of terrorism. What one is worse?

[seer]

Yes, biased far right conservative Judges loyal to Trump, not the Constitution, is what you want, and is what you are getting. But be careful what you wish for. Trump is appointing loyalist sycophants, like Atty Gen Barr in the top positions throughout government and literally destroying democratic institutions along the way. That's the road to a dictatorship which is exactly Trumps planned goal. You might like scoring points, but if he pulls it off, wins his game, you ain't gonna like it so much anymore. Open your eyes, don't be a dupe!

Jim what are you going to do when Trump is reelected? Are you going to be miserable for the next four years?

[Teallaura]

Afterwards, I have to go back and uncheck all this junk...

Emphasis is mine unless stated otherwise:

I am not saying Trump is Hitler. I'm saying that as each of you compromises what you profess to believe in in order to support Trump (for whatever reason you believe yourselves justified in doing so) we are watching the same mechanism that allowed Hitler to gain power. What is preventing a Hitler from rising on your grievances in these circumstances is our system of checks and balances, perhaps Trump not having the same goals or nature of Hitler. But as far as what it would take to stop a Hitler in terms of the population refusing to go along with immoral activity or abusive or racist behavior even if they are promised some short term gain, you all are behaving exactly as would be required. You simply will not stand against Trump when he does bad things for fear you will give the Dems or MSM some ground. He knows that because of that, he can do almost anything and he will not lose you. You prove it day after day. Your hatred of the Dems and the MSM are allowing him to be whatever he wants to be, to take this country wherever he wants to take it, no matter how low he goes, you are all right there with him.

I just hope that there is a limit to how far you will follow him.


Jim

What I have a very hard time doing is watching so many defend what Trump said, or laugh at the people he said it about.

To support Trump it seems is to lose pieces of one's humanity. I've watched it happen day after day on TWEB over the course of his presidency. Each day he takes another step into the mud, and each day people drop another piece of their soul and follow him in.


Jim

As I said to MM, "go back where they came from" is racist (and anti-immigration) rhetoric that has been in common use from before the KKK was formed.

For Trump to use it and double down on it can really lead to no other conclusion.


Jim

Im not talking about that phrase. That is not what Trump said. Trump said "they can go back where they came from" , which is a historically racist comment.

And hopefully you are intelligent and historically sufficiently well versed to understand the different histories and implications of the two phrases.


Jim

The fact you are ignorant of history and the use of the phrase "go back where they came from" does not change the facts surrounding its historical use and the implications of its use by Trump.

Jim

Maybe in Berlin c. 1942, but not here, not today.

Jim

Thst cartoon is moronic. To criticize something you see wrong with our country is not anti-american, it is the exact opposite. It is THE reason we have the right to free speech. We are explicitly allowed the right to say whatever we like about our government. In fact, not only is Trump racist, he is creating an atmosphere in his attacks on the press and his attacks on these congressmen where he is trying to invoke hostility against institutions and people that use their fee speech right to call for change or to criticize his presidency.

Each day, one step lower.

Jim

Exactly. Maybe those of you on TWEB making hourly use of ad hominem as a substitute for argument cant quite see it, but by attacking them and their ethnicity, the real problem with these congressman is completely lost and whatever negative response might exist to those policies is even reversed.

In this case, Trumps attacks on these congresswomen has given them a pass on their bad policies by shifting focus away from their bad policies and onto Trump's racism.


Jim

Yes, he did, and you are simply barking out nonsense because you know that's what he did and you don't have a leg to stand on.

Telling them to go back to where they came from and fix those same crime infested countries, when these are American citizens, is an attack on their ethnicity.

Or do you not understand what the word ethnicity means?

Ethnicity: the fact or state of belonging to a social group that has a common national or cultural tradition.


Jim

Denial is apparently all you have, snd so now you are just trolling. Clearly you will deny this as well (or not just to spite my prediction), either way, you have nothing of substance left to say.

Jim

Trump is not being criticised for criticizing their policies, he is being criticized for a hitorically racist/anti-immigration reference aimed at them.

Attacking the person in politics is sometimes easier than showing what is wrong with their policies, but if you take that over the top as Trump has done here, it accomplishes the reverse. It cause people that would otherwise reject their position to rally behind them. And it causes all but your most loyal to walk away.


Jim

That might be the case, but thanks to the moron in the white house, that case is now 10 times harder to make.

Jim

try not to keep reaching for excuses for Trump to the point you wander into fantasy. You are dangerously close here, if not over the line.

Jim

Yeah, it's really sad Trump made the stupid tweet he made, because the people that needed to see their silence on the firebombing and understand what it means will never be able to see it now. Trump really helped them out of that potential mess.


Jim

"Love it or leave it" does not make reference to countries of origin, though it still carries with it a bad historical stigma. "Go back where you came from" does, and historically as far back as the late 1700's is linked to anti-immigration sentiments. It's connection to racism became prominent in the 1950's and 60's with the debates over segregation and was applied to black people protesting segregation. It also became a rallying cry against people protesting the vietnam war in the mid to late 60's.

It has never meant anything good, and has almost always been used by bigots against people not like 'us'.


Jim

Think about what you are defending.

People wonder how Hitler was sble to gain the power he did. How could the good people let it happen?

We are watching how on these pages.

Each day, just a little lower.

Each day just a bit more of the unacceptable is accepted.

Jim

You are comparing me, personally, to a German of the 1930's - IF I'm charitable. The truth is much nastier - why you actually can't figure out how that would PISS ME OFF I'll never know.

As I have said many times MM, we have to stand for what is right. I am not justifying the Democrats defense of racists. I am condemning the Republicans for defending their racist president.

In other threads, I have raised my concerns about AOC and 'the squad'. I am as concerned about them as I am Trump - except that they are NOT Potus. They are freshman and simply don't (yet?) have the power or influence Trump does as POTUS.

The Democrats really need to be careful though, because AOC and the squad will NEVER defeat Trump. They are far to far left and if they let them drive the party and party policy then the Dems have lost to fanatics just as the Republicans have and it will be yet another rock and hard-place election where we can go with either hard socialism or white nationalism/facism. And the ideals of the Republic as it was formed will be far to close to annihilation than they should ever have come.


Jim

It is not hysterics MM. Trump is riding the low road like no other. He encouraged and roused up mob mentality against these congresswomen at his latest rally. I can't emphasize enough how irresponsible that kind of behavior is. To encourage that much raw hatred in a mob of people has not been seen often in our day. And everyone that has done it has been a very, very bad person and his followers have done very bad things. You just can't get that many people hating that much and there not be consequences.

And defending that sort of thing just isn't rational, or good.

Jim

No - but you are duped. Why would any of you support someone that would in a rally encourage and bask in getting the entire crowd to express vocal and frenzied hatred of congresswomen he happens to disagree with?

Think about the kind of person that can do that - think about how much hatred you would have to have to purposefully get people that riled up against fellow human beings.

Do you guys not understand how dangerous that is? Do you not understand what a mob mentality is, and how much destruction and death tends to come from it?


Jim

You can see it as a vile accusation or as a wake-up call. It's your choice. I am not targeting any specific person here, but there us a fundamental moral reality that is in play here:

All that is required for Evil to succeed is for good men to remain silent.

And I see most Trump supporters that say they don't like Trump himself as fitting that description. They will not speak against the bad things Trump is doing.

How about condemning Trumps actions when they are vile rather than supporting those actions because you like some of his policies?

Don't you realize that if you (Trump supporters) refuse to accept Trumps hateful acts you can change this? Here's a question: Will Trump still fight for the policies you want if Trump supporters stop supporting his vile actions?

What does it mean if he wont?

It is possible you (Trump supporters) won't challenge his hateful acts because you are afraid he will stop being for those things if you don't?



Jim

And im not joking when I say youve been deluded by one of the worst and most dangerous personalities to ever occupy the White House.

Jim

You are taking personally responses that are aimed at the group dynamic of the Trump defenders here on TWEB.

As a group this is what you are all doing. Some of you earn it all, some of you only some of it.

In the end, the lot of you, taken together, stand behind Trump through each and every vile thing he does, and it is almost never that one of you will break from the pack and join with me to say that Trump was way out of line.

Will any of you join me in recognizing the danger of whipping up and basking in the hatred seen in the chants against the congresswomen in his most recent rally?

Jim

We can all see Trump bask in the joy of watching those people chant. He spent days feeding the monster on Twitter and at the rally it is so obvious he is just sooo pleased it took. And his 'doing the right thing' is itself a mockery:

'Felt a little bit bad'



Jim

First snd foremost, your charcterization of the situation with Trump is wrong. What Im looking at and responding to are specific situations, specific policies. When Donald Trump at his rally does a specific thing that is reprehensible and I bring that thing up, then in almost every single case since i started posting in this forum, there are long dand heated defenses of those actions.

and when thst horrible thing he hss done is contrary to basic Christisn tesching, i will point out the moral conflict of supporting that action as a Christian.

So what happens if one of you brings up some other public figure that might have also done something like the thing Trump has done? Do I defend that public figure in that action? Geherally NO. Only if it is clear the accusation itself is false. Abd a lot of the time it isnt false, so you have me on record saying things like hillary's actions with the email server were wrong and I would not defend her with that any more than I would defend Trump's explicit callout to the Russians for help finding deleted emails.

What you cant see teal is that my standards are the same for all. Where the conflict comes into play is that for Donald Trump, the TWEB Christian Trump support chorus is willing to look the other way for him on matters that would have resulted in vocal and vigorous opposition where it almost anyone else.

And so it appears to that chorus I am always against Trump. But the reality is that the chorus here nearly always supports Trump no matter how vile his action. And Trump does a lot of openly vike things. And so we are always in conflict, because I will not support ANYONE doing the sorts of vile things Trump does on an almost daily basis.

Jim

No, i do not support abortion, though I doubt the moderation here will do anything to stop you from claiming I do*.

Supporting Donald Trump's excess because he might be able to do something to change the laws on abortion is a lot like supporting Lance Armstrong for the good he did in cancer awareness in spite of the fact he doped and cheated his way to 7 tour de france wins

The baggage Trump brings to the table overwhelms any potential good he might do on that issue.

The TWEB chorus defense of Trump would be like claiming Lance never even doped and why aren't we looking at all the good he's done for cancer awareness.

Jim

* so much so I'm not even going to waste my time asking them to make you stop.

It is hard to do the math if you don't take the time to make sure you've set up the equations correctly. So it is not surprising you can't figure it out. The issues are not as you've expressed them.

Jim

Except that the post you picked had no ad hominem directed at you. <AH> just means that section of text was directed at me as an insult or to tear down my character, intelligence etc. I cut those out now before I reply. It mskes it much easier to see the point made, if any. Of course if after editing for <AH> there is nothing left, tgen I just put
a shrug.

Youll notice I dont edit out points made about things other than me regardless of whether or not I think they are stupid, silly, or wrong.

Jim

You are not using logic there pix. You can pretend trump didnt spend several days stoking the fire against her in tweets, and you can pretend he didnt stand there soaking in the fruit of his efforts for 13 seconds, and you can pretend he didnt mock the entire episode in his 'apology' if you want to, but the reality is Trump caused it, worked hard to get it, and enjoyed it.


As for the statements made by the congresswoman herself, i tend to be about as much against them as you or Trump. So I'm ckearly not a 'jew hater'




There is plenty of hate to go around pix. And plenty of conservative and Trump encouraged violence as well. That is why it is so irresponsible for Trump to do what he did on twitter and at that rally. What he is doing is raising the hatred and fear levels in this country, which will cause more violence on ALL sides.

Jim

You realize your just off the rails because you don't like my criticism of Trump. Why don't you stop with the absurd over generalizations and just deal with the issues as the come up one at a time? It really is silly for you to spend all this time trying to paint me personally as a big bad ogre rather than just dealing with the issues themselves.

There is literally nothing in your post that isn't just a rant on my character. So I'll be holding to the <AH> synopsis from now on with you, until and unless you can find something better to talk about than your personal beef with me.

Feel free to rant on about how horrible I am - I'm sure it will make the others that feel the same way happy. But I will be ignoring any such content completely from this point forward.


Jim

Do you realize how many posts you have devoted to how horrible i am teal?

But it's not just you. It seems to be the TWEB civics pass-time these days.

Jim

Id suggest you go back and reread my posts teal. You do not know what you are talking about.

As for showing you where you are wrong, given that pointing out things Trump did were wrong has resulted in oage after page of fury, i wouldnt dare actually accuse YOU of doing sonething wrong.


BTW, can you even point to something specific I said to YOU about YOU doing something wrong?

Youve pontificated a good bit here using broad generalities. Care to be specific?

Jim

Yes, can and did. Technically, more of an ad hom but sufficient for the purpose.

YOU accused and implied NASTY things about EVERYONE that supports Trump in any way whatsoever - documented above.

YOU aren't innocent. You can stop playing now.

YOU aren't the victim just because people won't let you keep wounding them. When you torment the dog, you deserve the bite.

GROW UP. You cannot call, wheedle or imply nasty things about others without consequence.

[Teallaura]

And at risk of double posting I HATE YOU ALL FOR MAKING ME HAVE TO GO BACK AND UNCHECK ALL THOSE STUPID POSTS!!!!!

[TheWall]

I have had enough with people throwing out Hitler comparisons. What has it produced? More importantly Hitler made himself supreme chancellor and murdered his political opponents as well as those he hated in the name of the name of nazism. It is quite frankly lazy.

I got plenty of problems with trump. He is egotistical and brash. He has a bad habit of open mouth insert foot. Last I checked he isn't advocating the supremacy of arians.

[Teallaura]

I didn't say he wasn't legit, I said it's questionable as to whether or not he was "duly elected." He's legit because there is no way to prove what effect the Russians interference had. Likely it put him over the top in those 3 states where they put their focus on thanks to Paul Manaforts giving the Russians campaign polling and geograghical data.

*emphasis mine

No, I didn't. I didn't say he was not legit, but I didn't say he was legit either. What I said was that his legitimacy as a "duly elected" president was questionable.

Okay - what did you mean then? 'Cause the implication I get is that you are accepting the legitimacy of his presidency.

That's a silly argument, Tea. They are, or were, either legitimately elected or they were not legitimately elected. Getting away with it doesn't make them legit, or "Duly elected." And if they were a party to the fraud, then they are even more illegit, they are criminal, or, in Trumps case, treasonous.

The point is that no one seriously argues that they weren't legitimate presidents.

[oxmixmudd]

I have had enough with people throwing out Hitler comparisons. What has it produced? More importantly Hitler made himself supreme chancellor and murdered his political opponents as well as those he hated in the name of the name of nazism. It is quite frankly lazy.

I got plenty of problems with trump. He is egotistical and brash. He has a bad habit of open mouth insert foot. Last I checked he isn't advocating the supremacy of arians.

Actually, there has only been one hitler comparison i am aware of in this thread and it concerned the public dynamic that allowed him to rise to power, not any specific connection to him directly. That dynamic has allowed many bad things to happen over the years.

The remaining mentions of hitler were like yourself: people complaining that his name was mentioned.

Jim

Eta: ok, i see there are some others from other people.

[oxmixmudd]

Jim what are you going to do when Trump is reelected? Are you going to be miserable for the next four years?

Unhappy at least, if that happens. Though I'm not sure I'd be any less miserable if one of the 'extremes' on the democratic ticket beats him.

There is not a lot to look forward too in the 2020 election, unless perhaps a republican with some sense in his his brain knocks trump out during the primary.

Jim