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Thread: Heavenly Hosts and pacifism

  1. #11
    See, the Thing is... Cow Poke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparko View Post
    God sure isn't a pacifist when it comes to Evil. He destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah. Killed almost everyone in the Flood. Helped the Israelites conquer the heathens. Destroyed the Egyptian's armies, crops, first born, etc. And will destroy all mankind who do not belong to him in the end times.
    And, even Jesus said, "Do you think that I have come to give peace on earth? No, I tell you, but rather division".
    Every problem is the result of a previous solution.

  2. Amen Darth Executor amen'd this post.
  3. #12
    tWebber NorrinRadd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cow Poke View Post
    And, even Jesus said, "Do you think that I have come to give peace on earth? No, I tell you, but rather division".
    The parallel version in Matthew is even more violent -- "sword" instead of "division."
    Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

    Beige Nationalist.

    "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

  4. Amen Darth Executor amen'd this post.
  5. #13
    tWebber NorrinRadd's Avatar
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    The bottom line is that this is another one of those things where opposites are held in tension.

    "God is love" but "The LORD your God is a consuming fire, a jealous God."

    The Mighty God is the Prince of Peace, as well as a man of war.

    Jesus said "Blessed are the peacemakers," but also said "The kingdom of Heaven is entered by violent force, and forceful violent people lay hold of it."
    Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

    Beige Nationalist.

    "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

  6. Amen Cow Poke, Darth Executor amen'd this post.
  7. #14
    See, the Thing is... Cow Poke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NorrinRadd View Post
    The parallel version in Matthew is even more violent -- "sword" instead of "division."
    Yeppers - almost posted that one. Jesus wasn't (isn't) a sissy and God wasn't (isn't) a one dimensional being.
    Every problem is the result of a previous solution.

  8. #15
    tWebber Darth Executor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NorrinRadd View Post
    The bottom line is that this is another one of those things where opposites are held in tension.

    "God is love" but "The LORD your God is a consuming fire, a jealous God."

    The Mighty God is the Prince of Peace, as well as a man of war.

    Jesus said "Blessed are the peacemakers," but also said "The kingdom of Heaven is entered by violent force, and forceful violent people lay hold of it."
    I would argue they are not really opposite things at all, they just seem that way because modern men have lost their way. Lasting peace is created by wielding extreme violence. There is no jealousy without love.

    IE: Pacifists did not create this era of unprecedented peace, the threat of nuclear war did.

    The worst massacres of the 20th century were carried out by states against their powerless citizens.
    "As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths." Isaiah 3:12

    There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.

  9. #16
    Professor KingsGambit's Avatar
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    The OP mentions "pacifist God" but I am not aware of anybody who actually thinks God is a pacifist. The actual question is whether he calls his followers to be. I don't think he does but it's not incongruent with the examples of divine violence to think so since a double standard has precedent, i.e. humans are already held to a higher standard than God on vengeance.
    For what was given to everyone for the use of all, you have taken for your exclusive use. The earth belongs not to the rich, but to everyone. - Ambrose, 4th century AD

    All cruelty springs from weakness. - Seneca the Younger

  10. #17
    tWebber Darth Executor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KingsGambit View Post
    The OP mentions "pacifist God" but I am not aware of anybody who actually thinks God is a pacifist. The actual question is whether he calls his followers to be. I don't think he does but it's not incongruent with the examples of divine violence to think so since a double standard has precedent,
    God doesn't just not call his followers to be pacifist, He orders them to commit violence and punishes them for disobeying.

    i.e. humans are already held to a higher standard than God on vengeance.
    I don't agree, humans can extract vengeance but they have to do it by the book. Which is how God does it, instead of just lashing out reflexively.
    "As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths." Isaiah 3:12

    There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.

  11. #18
    Professor KingsGambit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Executor View Post
    God doesn't just not call his followers to be pacifist, He orders them to commit violence and punishes them for disobeying.



    I don't agree, humans can extract vengeance but they have to do it by the book. Which is how God does it, instead of just lashing out reflexively.
    Then how do you interpret Romans 12:19 apart from setting up a dual standard? Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.
    For what was given to everyone for the use of all, you have taken for your exclusive use. The earth belongs not to the rich, but to everyone. - Ambrose, 4th century AD

    All cruelty springs from weakness. - Seneca the Younger

  12. #19
    tWebber Darth Executor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KingsGambit View Post
    Then how do you interpret Romans 12:19 apart from setting up a dual standard? Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.
    Romans 13 talks about how God carries out that vengeance, and it's through the use of a human institution.
    "As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths." Isaiah 3:12

    There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.

  13. Amen NorrinRadd amen'd this post.
  14. #20
    Professor KingsGambit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Executor View Post
    Romans 13 talks about how God carries out that vengeance, and it's through the use of a human institution.
    Agreed, but it's still a prohibition from taking direct action on a personal level that does not apply to God.
    For what was given to everyone for the use of all, you have taken for your exclusive use. The earth belongs not to the rich, but to everyone. - Ambrose, 4th century AD

    All cruelty springs from weakness. - Seneca the Younger

  15. Amen NorrinRadd amen'd this post.

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