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Heavenly Hosts and pacifism

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  • Heavenly Hosts and pacifism

    I'm not back back, but I have had a thought for a while and it would be nice to get some feedback that doesn't originate from my (admittedly humongous) intellect:

    Why does a pacifist God have an army?

    This question could be further expanded into asking why God created an enemy who then acquired his own legions and has His own armies fight them.

    We can all agree God doesn't NEED an army, but He has one anyway, so presumably it is a consequence of some part of his nature.

    To me the answer is obvious: being a warrior is in God's nature (and it's something human males inherited as a result of being made in His image). The Israelites explicitly say this in Exodus 15:3.

    But this answer is not one a pacifist can give.
    "As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths." Isaiah 3:12

    There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.

  • #2
    Do you have specific passages in mind regarding God having an army? This answer can help clarify what you have in mind about this army.

    Does 'hosts' always refer to armies?

    I should mention that in Daniel 7, if memory serves, the armies of the Lord likely pointed to the future Roman armies that were tasked within an eschatological plan. But there seem to be other references to the Lord's hosts.
    Last edited by mikewhitney; 07-16-2019, 01:38 PM.

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    • #3
      Originally posted by mikewhitney View Post
      Do you have specific passages in mind regarding God having an army? This answer can help clarify what you have in mind about this army.

      Does 'hosts' always refer to armies?
      Warrior angels with flaming sword guards eden.

      Warrior angels mentioned repeatedly in psalms.

      Jesus tells Peter the Father will send Him legions of angels on command.

      Etc.

      In many instances God resorts to violence, either personally or through angelic proxies. Even if I could grant, for the sake of argument, that a pacifist God tolerates violence from demons or sinful humans, it is another thing entirely for a pacifist God to engage in violence, command other heavenly proxies to engage in violence or demand that humans engage in violence (all of which God has done at some point).

      The most obvious answer, to me, is that God is not a pacifist because pacifism is contrary to His nature, and the only way to harmonize God with pacifism is to strip God of omnipotence.
      "As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths." Isaiah 3:12

      There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.

      Comment


      • #4
        The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

        Comment


        • #5
          If the question relates to people who claim God is pacifist so that we Christians should be pacifists, I don't there there is any validity to such a viewpoint.

          I don't think we can say that God is a pacifist nor a warrior-god. He has simply acted in accord with wisdom in order to preserve the earth and move it toward the destination planned through the Messiah.

          If one were to say he was a warrior-god, this would sound like God wishes to promote war for the sake of war. It seems inaccurate to say that God wants war as his goal.

          If one were to say he was a pacifist, this would sound like God just letting anything happen as it may.

          The example about Israel through the Old Testament was that there were wars they needed to fight. There were also wars they weren't supposed to do. So we have no single point about history to say Christians should be pacifists.

          I think you are looking for the discussion from a Christian pacifist.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by mikewhitney View Post
            If the question relates to people who claim God is pacifist so that we Christians should be pacifists, I don't there there is any validity to such a viewpoint.

            I don't think we can say that God is a pacifist nor a warrior-god. He has simply acted in accord with wisdom in order to preserve the earth and move it toward the destination planned through the Messiah.

            If one were to say he was a warrior-god, this would sound like God wishes to promote war for the sake of war. It seems inaccurate to say that God wants war as his goal.

            If one were to say he was a pacifist, this would sound like God just letting anything happen as it may.

            The example about Israel through the Old Testament was that there were wars they needed to fight. There were also wars they weren't supposed to do. So we have no single point about history to say Christians should be pacifists.
            God can stop conflicts or solve them without war (if He is omnipotent). So it's not true that they NEEDED to fight any wars at any point.

            I think you are looking for the discussion from a Christian pacifist.
            Well... yeah. I thought that was obvious from the OP.
            "As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths." Isaiah 3:12

            There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Darth Executor View Post
              Well... yeah. I thought that was obvious from the OP.
              Now it's even obviouser.
              The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                Now it's even obviouser.
                Yes. It is obviousest. I was just acknowledging that I was interloping your thread.

                Comment


                • #9
                  In specific regard to the "pacifist" God --

                  Isa. 42:13 The LORD emerges like a hero, like a warrior he inspires himself for battle; he shouts, yes, he yells, he shows his enemies his power.
                  Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

                  Beige Federalist.

                  Nationalist Christian.

                  "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

                  Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

                  Proud member of the this space left blank community.

                  Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.

                  Justice for Ashli Babbitt!

                  Justice for Matthew Perna!

                  Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    God sure isn't a pacifist when it comes to Evil. He destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah. Killed almost everyone in the Flood. Helped the Israelites conquer the heathens. Destroyed the Egyptian's armies, crops, first born, etc. And will destroy all mankind who do not belong to him in the end times.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                      God sure isn't a pacifist when it comes to Evil. He destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah. Killed almost everyone in the Flood. Helped the Israelites conquer the heathens. Destroyed the Egyptian's armies, crops, first born, etc. And will destroy all mankind who do not belong to him in the end times.
                      And, even Jesus said, "Do you think that I have come to give peace on earth? No, I tell you, but rather division".
                      The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                        And, even Jesus said, "Do you think that I have come to give peace on earth? No, I tell you, but rather division".
                        The parallel version in Matthew is even more violent -- "sword" instead of "division."
                        Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

                        Beige Federalist.

                        Nationalist Christian.

                        "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

                        Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

                        Proud member of the this space left blank community.

                        Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.

                        Justice for Ashli Babbitt!

                        Justice for Matthew Perna!

                        Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          The bottom line is that this is another one of those things where opposites are held in tension.

                          "God is love" but "The LORD your God is a consuming fire, a jealous God."

                          The Mighty God is the Prince of Peace, as well as a man of war.

                          Jesus said "Blessed are the peacemakers," but also said "The kingdom of Heaven is entered by violent force, and forceful violent people lay hold of it."
                          Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

                          Beige Federalist.

                          Nationalist Christian.

                          "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

                          Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

                          Proud member of the this space left blank community.

                          Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.

                          Justice for Ashli Babbitt!

                          Justice for Matthew Perna!

                          Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by NorrinRadd View Post
                            The parallel version in Matthew is even more violent -- "sword" instead of "division."
                            Yeppers - almost posted that one. Jesus wasn't (isn't) a sissy and God wasn't (isn't) a one dimensional being.
                            The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by NorrinRadd View Post
                              The bottom line is that this is another one of those things where opposites are held in tension.

                              "God is love" but "The LORD your God is a consuming fire, a jealous God."

                              The Mighty God is the Prince of Peace, as well as a man of war.

                              Jesus said "Blessed are the peacemakers," but also said "The kingdom of Heaven is entered by violent force, and forceful violent people lay hold of it."
                              I would argue they are not really opposite things at all, they just seem that way because modern men have lost their way. Lasting peace is created by wielding extreme violence. There is no jealousy without love.

                              IE: Pacifists did not create this era of unprecedented peace, the threat of nuclear war did.

                              The worst massacres of the 20th century were carried out by states against their powerless citizens.
                              "As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths." Isaiah 3:12

                              There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.

                              Comment

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