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Thread: Heavenly Hosts and pacifism

  1. #31
    tWebber Leonhard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Executor View Post
    "Actually they didn't beat us we let them take over without a fight."
    Pretty much. We had no strategic alternative at that point. We made a political gambit. It worked. The Jews were ferried off the Norway in a single night. And we had practically no casualties, no damage to our infrastructure or heritage.

    It also worked when Kaiser Wilhelm attacked us.

    If you think we stood a chance against the German army, I wanna know what you're smoking.

    They were criminals under the law.
    Yes, it will always be hard to defend civil disobedience like that. Its the same with defending the actions of Rosa Parks, and other instances of people openly disobeying a law. I believe it can be done given these circumstances, the recency of the occupation, the assistance of the allied forces that would free Denmark again. The all together anomalousness of the situation.

    I can understand the desire for an easy parallel but there aren't any here. The closest possible analogy I can think of is whether German citizens in neighboring towns around Birkenau and Auschwitz had a duty to enact sabotage. I'd consider that a more interesting discussion, albiet counterfactual.

    No he didn't, he was irrelevant at best. ... it makes it clear to pro choicers you don't really believe abortion is murder since you will defend extreme action against one set of mass murderers but not another.
    Is that really why you came back to Tweb Darth Ex? To begin defending Pro-Life terrorism? Is it just trolling, or does this actually represent a viewpoint you hold? I honestly didn't expect that comment of mine to draw you into a multi post argument about something that is obvious to anyone here. I just put it out there as a caveat, since an action like that is neither an act of self-defense by an individual, and its a not a police officer acting within the Law, and its not an act of the military in defending the country against an external threat.

    You actually believe that terrorist activities like the small handful of murders committed by crazed out pro-lifers are useful by any stretch of the imagination? I can't think of any significant body of Pro-Life movers out there who haven't condemned, repeatedly, Scott Roeders vile act. Even Operation Rescue which was the organisation that tended to hand out addresses of abortionists left and right uncritically.
    Last edited by Leonhard; 07-19-2019 at 02:26 PM.

  2. #32
    tWebber Chrawnus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leonhard View Post
    You actually believe that terrorist activities like the small handful of murders committed by crazed out pro-lifers are useful by any stretch of the imagination? I can't think of any significant body of Pro-Life movers out there who haven't condemned, repeatedly, Scott Roeders vile act. Even Operation Rescue which was the organisation that tended to hand out addresses of abortionists left and right uncritically.
    He said Scott Roeders was irrelevant at best. You have to be really reaching to read that as implying that DE thinks anything he did was useful...

  3. #33
    tWebber Leonhard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chrawnus View Post
    He said Scott Roeders was irrelevant at best. You have to be really reaching to read that as implying that DE thinks anything he did was useful...
    If all Darth Ex is arguing for is that freedom fighters should be considered reprobates, I think that's a fair argument to make. As I've pointed out its rather difficult within Christian moral theology to defend it. And you're right that this is an ambiguity that I didn't consider.

    At any rate, it would remain the case that Pro-Life terrorism can't be justified.

  4. #34
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Executor View Post
    I'm not back back, but I have had a thought for a while and it would be nice to get some feedback that doesn't originate from my (admittedly humongous) intellect:

    Why does a pacifist God have an army?

    This question could be further expanded into asking why God created an enemy who then acquired his own legions and has His own armies fight them.

    We can all agree God doesn't NEED an army, but He has one anyway, so presumably it is a consequence of some part of his nature.

    To me the answer is obvious: being a warrior is in God's nature (and it's something human males inherited as a result of being made in His image). The Israelites explicitly say this in Exodus 15:3.

    But this answer is not one a pacifist can give.
    Jealous God possesses, owns all, wants all. Will take all, except souls unwilling!

    "the loud, irruptive, possessive thing-the gold lion, the bearded bull-which breaks through hedges and scatters the little kingdom of your primness as the dwarfs scattered the carefully made bed... the masculine none of us can escape. What is above and beyond all things is so masculine that we are all feminine in relation to it."

    being a warrior is in God's nature (and it's something human males inherited as a result of being made in His image)
    "Blessed be the Lord my Rock, Who trains my hands for war, And my fingers for battle,"
    Trump is basically "Bruce Wayne pretending to be a foppish retarded billionaire" tier genius, in case nerds need a simpler metaphor.

  5. #35
    tWebber Rushing Jaws's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Executor View Post
    I'm not back back, but I have had a thought for a while and it would be nice to get some feedback that doesn't originate from my (admittedly humongous) intellect:

    Why does a pacifist God have an army?

    This question could be further expanded into asking why God created an enemy who then acquired his own legions and has His own armies fight them.

    We can all agree God doesn't NEED an army, but He has one anyway, so presumably it is a consequence of some part of his nature.

    To me the answer is obvious: being a warrior is in God's nature (and it's something human males inherited as a result of being made in His image). The Israelites explicitly say this in Exodus 15:3.

    But this answer is not one a pacifist can give.
    What does the title JHWH Tsebhaōth denote ?

    1. That JHWH is the Creator of the “host[s] of heaven” ?

    2. That JHWH is their King ?

    3. That they are His sheep - when considered as stars - and He their Shepherd ?

    4. That they are the gods, and He is “a great King above all gods” ?

    5. That they are the heavenly army, of JHWH the Warrior, Who fights for His People Israel ?

    The OT (mostly) is full of imagery that is relevant to the question. Perhaps the leading idea - if any one can be isolated - is the idea of JHWH as King.

    This would account for the Warrior-imagery, and also for the Shepherd-imagery. King have courts as well as war-hosts, so, as He is “King above all gods”, they are either subject-kings, Heavenly vassals; or, they are His courtiers. “Son of the king” in the kingdom of Judah = “member of the king’s household”; so the “sons of JHWH” (as per Gen.6.1-4) may be the lesser gods who in 1 Kings 22 & the Book of Job are His courtiers.

    His being a Warrior is an aspect of His being King of these “hosts” - but there are other aspects as well. And IMHO His being a Warrior is - or became ? - an aspect of His being King.

    Obviously one must not exaggerate the importance of Kingship-imagery, or forget other OT themes; but even so, ISTM that the OT does allow one to conclude that Kingship is a very important notion for theologising about the God of Israel.

    Short answer: He is King. Kings have subjects, courtiers, armies. If they are great enough, they are High Kings, and have kings subject to them.

    Maybe belief in JHWH as Creator of Israel (by His Covenant with Israel) sparked the idea of JHWH as Creator and Universal King ? One of the things an ANE king did, was, conclude covenants. The Hittites did, the Egyptians did, and the Assyrians did.

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