The OP mentions "pacifist God" but I am not aware of anybody who actually thinks God is a pacifist. The actual question is whether he calls his followers to be. I don't think he does but it's not incongruent with the examples of divine violence to think so since a double standard has precedent, i.e. humans are already held to a higher standard than God on vengeance.
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Discussion on matters of general mainstream evangelical Christian theology that do not fit within Theology 201. Have some spiritual gifts ceased today? Is the KJV the only viable translation for the church today? In what sense are the books of the bible inspired and what are those books? Church government? Modern day prophets and apostles?
This forum is primarily for Christians to discuss matters of Christian doctrine, and is not the area for debate between atheists (or those opposing orthodox Christianity) and Christians. Inquiring atheists (or sincere seekers/doubters/unorthodox) seeking only Christian participation and having demonstrated a manner that does not seek to undermine the orthodox Christian faith of others are also welcome, but must seek Moderator permission first. When defining “Christian” or "orthodox" for purposes of this section, we mean persons holding to the core essentials of the historic Christian faith such as the Trinity, the Creatorship of God, the virgin birth, the bodily resurrection of Christ, the atonement, the future bodily return of Christ, the future bodily resurrection of the just and the unjust, and the final judgment. Persons not holding to these core doctrines are welcome to participate in the Comparative Religions section without restriction, in Theology 201 as regards to the nature of God and salvation with limited restrictions, and in Christology for issues surrounding the person of Christ and the Trinity. Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 forum without such restrictions.
Additionally and rarely, there may be some topics or lines of discussion that within the Moderator's discretion fall so outside the bounds of mainstream orthodox doctrine (in general Christian circles or in the TheologyWeb community) or that deny certain core values that are the Christian convictions of forum leadership that may be more appropriately placed within Unorthodox Theology 201. NO personal offense should be taken by such discretionary decision for none is intended. While inerrancy is NOT considered a requirement for posting in this section, a general respect for the Bible text and a respect for the inerrantist position of others is requested.
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Heavenly Hosts and pacifism
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"I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill
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Originally posted by KingsGambit View PostThe OP mentions "pacifist God" but I am not aware of anybody who actually thinks God is a pacifist. The actual question is whether he calls his followers to be. I don't think he does but it's not incongruent with the examples of divine violence to think so since a double standard has precedent,
i.e. humans are already held to a higher standard than God on vengeance."As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths." Isaiah 3:12
There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.
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Originally posted by Darth Executor View PostGod doesn't just not call his followers to be pacifist, He orders them to commit violence and punishes them for disobeying.
I don't agree, humans can extract vengeance but they have to do it by the book. Which is how God does it, instead of just lashing out reflexively."I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill
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Originally posted by KingsGambit View PostThen how do you interpret Romans 12:19 apart from setting up a dual standard? Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord."As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths." Isaiah 3:12
There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.
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Originally posted by Darth Executor View PostRomans 13 talks about how God carries out that vengeance, and it's through the use of a human institution."I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill
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Originally posted by KingsGambit View PostAgreed, but it's still a prohibition from taking direct action on a personal level that does not apply to God."As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths." Isaiah 3:12
There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.
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While some people would point out that passages like these can be given a spiritual or mystical interpretation, and they would be right, I think its also a mistake to not take them as also applying to the secular domain. And there is nothing wrong with using the threat of violence in a lawful manner:
The individual may use necessary force to protect themselves from someone who threatens their life.
The police carry the authority to use violence to catch, restrain and stop criminals.
The military possess even more liberty to use force to protect a country from external enemies.
These are natural rights. I don't even think we need the Bible to recognize them. And the Bible does affirm them. And God being the God of everything is also the God of soldiers and police officers.
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Originally posted by Leonhard View PostThat being said, in no way can this be read to justify something like terrorism done in the cause of the Pro-Life movement.Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.
Beige Federalist.
Nationalist Christian.
"Everybody is somebody's heretic."
Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.
Proud member of the this space left blank community.
Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.
Justice for Ashli Babbitt!
Justice for Matthew Perna!
Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!
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Originally posted by Leonhard View PostThat being said, in no way can this be read to justify something like terrorism done in the cause of the Pro-Life movement."As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths." Isaiah 3:12
There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.
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Originally posted by Darth Executor View PostYou didn't seem to have a problem with terrorism done to resist Nazi occupation, if I recall correctly.
I can't find a suitable parallel with the Pro Life movement at all. Not one that would defend Scott Roeder's shooting of Tiller under those terms.
Scott Roeder will join Tiller in hell if he doesn't repent of his murder before he dies.
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While I agree with your interpretation of Romans 13, your exegesis of Romans 12 just doesn't match the tenor of what Paul seems to be saying, esp. 12:20-21. But that's not even the main point of the OP so I'll step away from this tangent."I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill
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Originally posted by Leonhard View PostYou believe the united states to be currently occupied by a foreign invasion of a neighboring country,"As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths." Isaiah 3:12
There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.
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Originally posted by Darth Executor View PostPaul was explicitly talking about an occupational foreign government (Rome), so this distinction isn't material.
The nazis beat you and became the new government.
In other words we surrendered to save our country, and to protect the six hundred jews present which were sent to other countries that were in a better position to defend them.
Germany didn't consider themselves our government, anymore than you considered Iraq a part of the US, or considered the various South American, or Asian countries who's governments you toppled to be part of it. They wanted our factories for their use, and they wanted bunkers on the danish beaches. Some of which are still visible to this day.
Calling it resistance doesn't change the fact that they committed crimes (including murder),
no different from Roeder.
He was a useless terrorist who set back the pro life movement in the US by years.
If Roeder is going to burn in hell
Unfortunately he doesn't appear to be doing that.Last edited by Leonhard; 07-19-2019, 11:20 AM.
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Originally posted by Leonhard View PostThe nazis didn't beat the Denmark. It started out with a neutral position in the war, neither acting for or against, and was under the protectorate of the German government. Then later, in fact only the last two years, it was under direct military occupation. This was by surrender. And after that follows a situation which isn't easily described, because contrary to basically any other country that the Nazi forces occupied, Denmark was allowed to function pretty much under its own government.
In other words we surrendered to save our country, and to protect the six hundred jews present which were sent to other countries that were in a better position to defend them.
Germany didn't consider themselves our government, anymore than you considered Iraq a part of the US, or considered the various South American, or Asian countries who's governments you toppled to be part of it. They wanted our factories for their use, and they wanted bunkers on the danish beaches. Some of which are still visible to this day.
How does any of that change anything? If anything it makes it worse since they were legitimized by you, only to have you attack (and murder) them extra-legally.
And its not easy at all to defend their actions under Christian theology. However, the freedom fighters to a large part were organised by the danish military forces that had withdrawn to Great Britian, from where they organised military strikes against the German forces. Mainly by hurting the infrastructure.
No different? Roeder was a terrorist loon acting on no orders, no flag, no government.
He was a useless terrorist who set back the pro life movement in the US by years.
If terrorists set back movements in the eyes of leftists Muslims, socialists and communists would not be revered given that they're responsible for the overwhelming majority of terrorism in the world."As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths." Isaiah 3:12
There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.
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