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Heavenly Hosts and pacifism

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  • #16
    The OP mentions "pacifist God" but I am not aware of anybody who actually thinks God is a pacifist. The actual question is whether he calls his followers to be. I don't think he does but it's not incongruent with the examples of divine violence to think so since a double standard has precedent, i.e. humans are already held to a higher standard than God on vengeance.
    "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

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    • #17
      Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
      The OP mentions "pacifist God" but I am not aware of anybody who actually thinks God is a pacifist. The actual question is whether he calls his followers to be. I don't think he does but it's not incongruent with the examples of divine violence to think so since a double standard has precedent,
      God doesn't just not call his followers to be pacifist, He orders them to commit violence and punishes them for disobeying.

      i.e. humans are already held to a higher standard than God on vengeance.
      I don't agree, humans can extract vengeance but they have to do it by the book. Which is how God does it, instead of just lashing out reflexively.
      "As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths." Isaiah 3:12

      There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by Darth Executor View Post
        God doesn't just not call his followers to be pacifist, He orders them to commit violence and punishes them for disobeying.



        I don't agree, humans can extract vengeance but they have to do it by the book. Which is how God does it, instead of just lashing out reflexively.
        Then how do you interpret Romans 12:19 apart from setting up a dual standard? Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.
        "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

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        • #19
          Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
          Then how do you interpret Romans 12:19 apart from setting up a dual standard? Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.
          Romans 13 talks about how God carries out that vengeance, and it's through the use of a human institution.
          "As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths." Isaiah 3:12

          There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by Darth Executor View Post
            Romans 13 talks about how God carries out that vengeance, and it's through the use of a human institution.
            Agreed, but it's still a prohibition from taking direct action on a personal level that does not apply to God.
            "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
              Agreed, but it's still a prohibition from taking direct action on a personal level that does not apply to God.
              It applies to God in the sense that God Himself does not extract immediate vengeance either (by choice). God is not asking you to refrain from what He does anyway, He is asking you to not do what He does not do.
              "As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths." Isaiah 3:12

              There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.

              Comment


              • #22
                While some people would point out that passages like these can be given a spiritual or mystical interpretation, and they would be right, I think its also a mistake to not take them as also applying to the secular domain. And there is nothing wrong with using the threat of violence in a lawful manner:

                The individual may use necessary force to protect themselves from someone who threatens their life.
                The police carry the authority to use violence to catch, restrain and stop criminals.
                The military possess even more liberty to use force to protect a country from external enemies.

                These are natural rights. I don't even think we need the Bible to recognize them. And the Bible does affirm them. And God being the God of everything is also the God of soldiers and police officers.

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                • #23
                  That being said, in no way can this be read to justify something like terrorism done in the cause of the Pro-Life movement.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
                    That being said, in no way can this be read to justify something like terrorism done in the cause of the Pro-Life movement.
                    It's been quite a while since I've heard of violence on the part of Pro-Lifers, and when it did happen, my recollection is that it was usually against buildings and equipment. The goal was to destroy the means of performing abortions, not to terrorize the personnel. Of course, it's possible my memory is wrong, or that the news I heard was filtered differently from the news others heard.
                    Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

                    Beige Federalist.

                    Nationalist Christian.

                    "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

                    Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

                    Proud member of the this space left blank community.

                    Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.

                    Justice for Ashli Babbitt!

                    Justice for Matthew Perna!

                    Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
                      That being said, in no way can this be read to justify something like terrorism done in the cause of the Pro-Life movement.
                      You didn't seem to have a problem with terrorism done to resist Nazi occupation, if I recall correctly.
                      "As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths." Isaiah 3:12

                      There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Darth Executor View Post
                        You didn't seem to have a problem with terrorism done to resist Nazi occupation, if I recall correctly.
                        You believe the united states to be currently occupied by a foreign invasion of a neighboring country, that's taken over your government entirely? Even then defending civil disobedience on the level of blowing up train tracks, as the resistance movement did is somewhat difficult to defend from a Christian perspective. I believe its possible though, and the obstruction that danish freedom fighters caused delayed a lot of war material from flowing from danish factories to the front lines.

                        I can't find a suitable parallel with the Pro Life movement at all. Not one that would defend Scott Roeder's shooting of Tiller under those terms.

                        Scott Roeder will join Tiller in hell if he doesn't repent of his murder before he dies.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          While I agree with your interpretation of Romans 13, your exegesis of Romans 12 just doesn't match the tenor of what Paul seems to be saying, esp. 12:20-21. But that's not even the main point of the OP so I'll step away from this tangent.
                          "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
                            You believe the united states to be currently occupied by a foreign invasion of a neighboring country,
                            Paul was explicitly talking about an occupational foreign government (Rome), so this distinction isn't material. The nazis beat you and became the new government. Calling it resistance doesn't change the fact that they committed crimes (including murder), no different from Roeder. If Roeder is going to burn in hell for his murder of a murderer then it stands to reason so will anyone who resisted the Nazis occupation of their country.
                            "As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths." Isaiah 3:12

                            There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Darth Executor View Post
                              Paul was explicitly talking about an occupational foreign government (Rome), so this distinction isn't material.
                              As I said, arguing for something like what the resistance movement did isn't easy under Christian theology. I believe its possible without falling into the errors of Liberation Theology, but still its not a straight forward thing you can proof text from the bible.

                              The nazis beat you and became the new government.
                              The nazis didn't beat the Denmark. It started out with a neutral position in the war, neither acting for or against, and was under the protectorate of the German government. Then later, in fact only the last two years, it was under direct military occupation. This was by surrender. And after that follows a situation which isn't easily described, because contrary to basically any other country that the Nazi forces occupied, Denmark was allowed to function pretty much under its own government.

                              In other words we surrendered to save our country, and to protect the six hundred jews present which were sent to other countries that were in a better position to defend them.

                              Germany didn't consider themselves our government, anymore than you considered Iraq a part of the US, or considered the various South American, or Asian countries who's governments you toppled to be part of it. They wanted our factories for their use, and they wanted bunkers on the danish beaches. Some of which are still visible to this day.

                              Calling it resistance doesn't change the fact that they committed crimes (including murder),
                              And its not easy at all to defend their actions under Christian theology. However, the freedom fighters to a large part were organised by the danish military forces that had withdrawn to Great Britian, from where they organised military strikes against the German forces. Mainly by hurting the infrastructure.

                              no different from Roeder.
                              No different? Roeder was a terrorist loon acting on no orders, no flag, no government.

                              He was a useless terrorist who set back the pro life movement in the US by years.

                              If Roeder is going to burn in hell
                              There is no if, unless he repents.

                              Unfortunately he doesn't appear to be doing that.
                              Last edited by Leonhard; 07-19-2019, 11:20 AM.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
                                The nazis didn't beat the Denmark. It started out with a neutral position in the war, neither acting for or against, and was under the protectorate of the German government. Then later, in fact only the last two years, it was under direct military occupation. This was by surrender. And after that follows a situation which isn't easily described, because contrary to basically any other country that the Nazi forces occupied, Denmark was allowed to function pretty much under its own government.

                                In other words we surrendered to save our country, and to protect the six hundred jews present which were sent to other countries that were in a better position to defend them.

                                Germany didn't consider themselves our government, anymore than you considered Iraq a part of the US, or considered the various South American, or Asian countries who's governments you toppled to be part of it. They wanted our factories for their use, and they wanted bunkers on the danish beaches. Some of which are still visible to this day.
                                "Actually they didn't beat us we let them take over without a fight."

                                How does any of that change anything? If anything it makes it worse since they were legitimized by you, only to have you attack (and murder) them extra-legally.

                                And its not easy at all to defend their actions under Christian theology. However, the freedom fighters to a large part were organised by the danish military forces that had withdrawn to Great Britian, from where they organised military strikes against the German forces. Mainly by hurting the infrastructure.
                                They were criminals under the law. Britain had no control over Denmark so saying they were in Britain doesn't make any difference to the topic. Jewish resistance to Rome was also organized and associated with a nation.

                                No different? Roeder was a terrorist loon acting on no orders, no flag, no government.
                                Many Nazi resisters were acting on no orders, no flag, no government, and acting on orders from someone else, for a flag, or a foreign government in no way reduces the criminal nature of the act.

                                He was a useless terrorist who set back the pro life movement in the US by years.
                                No he didn't, he was irrelevant at best. If anything your double standards between nazi resistance and him sets back the pro life movement, because it makes it clear to pro choicers you don't really believe abortion is murder since you will defend extreme action against one set of mass murderers but not another.

                                If terrorists set back movements in the eyes of leftists Muslims, socialists and communists would not be revered given that they're responsible for the overwhelming majority of terrorism in the world.
                                "As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths." Isaiah 3:12

                                There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.

                                Comment

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