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Thread: Supreme Court: The Wall Can Go Foward...

  1. #261
    tWebber Starlight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparko View Post
    So you should support Trump's plan to allow them to apply from their home country and not have to suffer a 3000 mile trip to be held in cages. right?
    I've got ZERO issue with offering easier methods for applying for asylum, that bit sounds great. But I'm not fine with forcing them to apply from their home country. With a lot of these asylum seekers the conditions in their home country were so terrible they were forced to flee for their lives.

    As I understand it, the point of Trump's plan to effectively to break the international asylum treaties that say that if a desperate person turns up at your border you've got to offer assistance and have a legal process to judge the validity of their asylum claim. Secondarily, it seems like Trump would like to move the current refugee concentration camps to Guatemala in order to reduce the legal rights of the occupants and oversight of the facilities: Like Gitmo, if it's off US soil, anything goes. I don't see that as being a positive step for the well-being of refugees. As far as I can tell, Trump's suggested policy is not originating out of love or a concern for the well-being of the refugees, it's originating out of a hatred of those people.

  2. #262
    Troll Magnet Sparko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cow Poke View Post
    Plus, it's kinda hard to walk to Canada from South or Central America to come in from the North. I think Jimmy flunked Canography.
    we could just run the wall up the border of california and washington and then they would have a highway straight to canada!

  3. #263
    Troll Magnet Sparko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charles View Post
    I wonder how it became completely impossible to imagine a situation in which they were not held in cages and in which innocent children were not separated from their parents.

    Starlight said it very clearly:



    The fact that currently this appears to happen with no necessity and with no jusitification is not a justification of a wall that would prevent people from experiencing the evil that somehow some people find it decent to expose them to currently.
    easy, if there is a wall then they can't get in and be arrested and put in cages. They can still apply for asylum at a US embassy in their home country and then wait for the results of their application.
    The Dept of Justice says that out of 100 people applying for asylum only about 12 actually qualify. The rest just wasted their time and have to travel all the way back home. if they don't have to travel so much, they can save the money they are using to pay the coyotes and just wait for the answer at home.

    so a wall along with the new rules stops the overcrowding in at the detention centers and the problem of bad conditions. We just can't handle the number of people coming in at one time like what happens right now.

  4. #264
    tWebber Starlight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cow Poke View Post
    Yeah, cause the Rio Grande is such a deep and raging river!
    The recently circulating picture of the drowned father and child suggests it can be.

    Much of that border area is flood zones, which incidentally, is a core problem with a 'wall' or any substantial barrier because the water has to be able to travel across the border en masse in the case of floods.

  5. #265
    Troll Magnet Sparko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Starlight View Post
    I've got ZERO issue with offering easier methods for applying for asylum, that bit sounds great. But I'm not fine with forcing them to apply from their home country. With a lot of these asylum seekers the conditions in their home country were so terrible they were forced to flee for their lives.

    As I understand it, the point of Trump's plan to effectively to break the international asylum treaties that say that if a desperate person turns up at your border you've got to offer assistance and have a legal process to judge the validity of their asylum claim. Secondarily, it seems like Trump would like to move the current refugee concentration camps to Guatemala in order to reduce the legal rights of the occupants and oversight of the facilities: Like Gitmo, if it's off US soil, anything goes. I don't see that as being a positive step for the well-being of refugees. As far as I can tell, Trump's suggested policy is not originating out of love or a concern for the well-being of the refugees, it's originating out of a hatred of those people.
    the conditions in the USA are a direct result of too many immigrants flooding the border. We have to stem the flow.

    the new rules say that someone can't go through a third country to apply for asylum in the USA without being turned down for asylum in that third country first. So they can either apply in their home country, or go to a neighboring country and apply for asylum, but they can't just trot through Mexico to the USA. Mexico offered them asylum and they ignored it to come to the USA. That is no longer someone desperate to flee a dangerous situation. No longer a "refugee"

  6. #266
    tWebber Starlight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparko View Post
    the conditions in the USA are a direct result of too many immigrants flooding the border. We have to stem the flow.
    You don't have to, it's not like the US literally can't cope with the numbers. But if you choose to accept less total immigrants, that is fine, I think it's totally within a country's right to choose how many are accepted.

    the new rules say that someone can't go through a third country to apply for asylum in the USA without being turned down for asylum in that third country first.
    A core problem I see with that is that as I understand it there are multiple countries in South America currently where violence is extreme, and a lot of the drug cartels operate cross-border. What is a person supposed to do if its not merely their own country but those around them that are violent, and if those who are targeting them operate in all the countries they're 'allowed' to seek asylum in?

    I don't have a problem in theory with the idea of trying to distinguish true asylum seekers from people who have simply decided they want to live in the US by looking at what other countries they crossed through and could have stopped in. But surely that is already something the immigration courts consider when judging whether a given asylum claim is valid? If not, it should be.

    But the general idea of working with central american countries to try and create a more organized process in the region about asylum and reduce the number of asylum seekers turning up on the US's doorstep is just common sense. Unfortunately Trump will presumably bungle it like he has everything else in his life and presidency.

    Mexico offered them asylum and they ignored it to come to the USA.
    Who is the 'them' here? Mexico does not generically offer unlimited amounts of asylum to every single refugee that crosses it. Maybe you're confusing a specific group and specific offer with standard practice?

  7. #267
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teallaura View Post
    I only addressed those with a legitimate claim to asylum - and as I stated, most are NOT in immediate danger of life or limb. Your assertion that they cannot apply in their own countries when that is the case, is moronic. Your assertion that they are better off fleeing for the border rather than seeking immediate protection in an embassy or consulate is also moronic. There will undoubtedly be a tiny number who are close enough that safely crossing the border is the better option than safely reaching the embassy - but that does not make the case that all asylum seekers must first flee the country - which is YOUR moronic argument.
    Getting a bit emotional there - look at all that bold. Keep it rational now. An entitled woman that lives in one of the richest country in the world - first world splaining it like the world's refugees like life is a Disney film.

    For the example I gave, your position is laughable. I suspect that in most instances, it is laughable, given the definition of 'flee' and 'well-founded fear' in that of asylee and refugee. So by defintion, you are wrong. But hey, let's consider an example - you really think the Rohingya should of just stuck around, waited it out? Or people under threat of persecution should just wait and see what happens to them? Your reaching an embassy story, again, bonkers. What are they going to do there, just chill in the lobby for the next year while their application is held up by an administration of dubious intent? Pull the other one it has got bells on.

    Asylum seekers, that are being persecuted for and that meet the necessary and sufficient conditions, need to have the possibility of exit to a safe third country where they can apply for asylum. You don't like that. Because they are coming to the US and taking all of your cake?

    While you continue to kick down to the poor and downtrodden - you're being robbed blind by the rich. But hey, who cares, right?
    Last edited by Zara; 07-29-2019 at 03:29 PM.

  8. #268
    tWebber Teallaura's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zara View Post
    Getting a bit emotional there - look at all that bold. Keep it rational now. An entitled woman that lives in one of the richest country in the world - first world splaining it like the world's refugees like life is a Disney film.

    ...
    Yeah, no - the bold is because you can't read the whole thing. And once again, you fail to address what I actually said - big shock, I know.

  9. Amen Cerebrum123 amen'd this post.
  10. #269
    Must...have...caffeine One Bad Pig's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Starlight View Post
    Oh, nice. Hi Zara, I was already liking your posts, but nice to see another fellow Kiwi.
    "I just happened to notice this post...."
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  11. Amen Teallaura, Sparko amen'd this post.
  12. #270
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by Starlight View Post
    a few migrants crossing the border
    "a few"

    So very very false, how you can say that with straight face demi cannot understand.
    Trump is basically "Bruce Wayne pretending to be a foppish retarded billionaire" tier genius, in case nerds need a simpler metaphor.

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