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  • Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
    No, you specifically asked:



    In direct response to:



    Which was in response to:


    Which was in response to:



    Which was in response to:



    And the post that started it was:



    So the question was asked in context of why the South fought the Civil War - the Southern foot soldiers being more interested in not having all their possessions seized by an occupying army - that would be the context and my answer addresses it as such.
    Tea, the assertion by BtC was that, as stated above, the cause of the war was that foot soldiers didn't want their possessions siezed. First off that's just dumb. It may have been an effect of the war, but it had nothing to do with the cause of the war.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View Post
      The Democrat party never left them behind Jimmy, you’re repeating more myths and talking points. Why the South became Republican has to do with shifts in Democrats switching from the party of God and Country to the socialist party. I come from a long line of Democrats that voted democrat because of JFK or Truman. Two people that would never be president in the modern Democrat party. I didn’t leave the Democrats, they left me.
      Read your history, Lilpix.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by JimL View Post
        Read your history, Lilpix.
        I have Jimmy and unlike you, I don’t get my information from talking points for dummies. See, while I do have southern ancestors, most of my closer ancestors are Midwesterners and west coasters, where racism wasn’t as large. They were democrats because democrats stood for the working man, God, and country.
        Last edited by lilpixieofterror; 08-22-2019, 09:09 AM.
        "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
        GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

        Comment


        • Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View Post
          Jimmy doesn’t get that slavery was a dying institution that likely would have been dead before 1900 in the south, even if the south would have won the civil war.
          If that were true, then the south wouldn't have cared about Lincolns intent to stop slavery from moving into the western territories.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by JimL View Post
            If that were true, then the south wouldn't have cared about Lincolns intent to stop slavery from moving into the western territories.
            My dear Jimmy, people fight hard for what they know, even when it isn’t working or not working anymore. Slavery was dying in 1860 and would have died no matter the outcome of the civil war. The war merely sped up its death. Slave owners were some of the most powerful men, in America in 1776, they were losing their power throughout the 19th century till Lincoln was elected without a single Southern state.
            Last edited by lilpixieofterror; 08-22-2019, 09:13 AM.
            "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
            GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

            Comment


            • Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View Post
              My dear Jimmy, people fight hard for what they know, even when it isn’t working or not working anymore. Slavery was dying in 1860 and would have died no matter the outcome of the civil war. The war merely sped up its death. Slave owners were some of the most powerful men, in America in 1776, they were losing their power throughout the 19th century till Lincoln was elected without a single Southern state.
              The invention of the cotton gin and a number of other mechanical devices was decreasing the need for cheap or forced labor, along with an enlightening that slavery was just outright immoral.
              The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                The invention of the cotton gin and a number of other mechanical devices was decreasing the need for cheap or forced labor, along with an enlightening that slavery was just outright immoral.
                Pretty much, farming used to be pretty labor intensive operation that took an army of workers to plant, fertilize, water, weed, and pick. From what I’ve read, pre cotton gin days took a lot of labor in removing the seeds from the cotton on top of all that. Simply put, the tractor and other modern farming techniques and inventions would have put the slave holder out of business even without the civil war and abolition movement.
                "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
                GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

                Comment


                • Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View Post
                  Pretty much, farming used to be pretty labor intensive operation that took an army of workers to plant, fertilize, water, weed, and pick. From what I’ve read, pre cotton gin days took a lot of labor in removing the seeds from the cotton on top of all that. Simply put, the tractor and other modern farming techniques and inventions would have put the slave holder out of business even without the civil war and abolition movement.
                  I think this is what those ignorant of actual history can't seem to grasp. It wasn't that "we want to own people" - it was that cotton, in particular, was extremely labor intensive, and it was, in fact KING in the South. Anybody in the North who wore denim or cotton clothing or slept on cotton sheets was complicit, pretty much.

                  There were, of course, expense in owning slaves - you had to provide food, clothes, shelter.... and if you could do the same work with a one-time up front purchase of a tractor or cotton gin, or cotton press or anything else that offset that expense - it was, indeed, an economic calculation.
                  The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by JimL View Post
                    Read your history, Lilpix.
                    You probably shouldn't be advising others to read, Jim. It's not as if you appear to have much practice at that.
                    Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                    Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                    sigpic
                    I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                      I think this is what those ignorant of actual history can't seem to grasp. It wasn't that "we want to own people" - it was that cotton, in particular, was extremely labor intensive, and it was, in fact KING in the South. Anybody in the North who wore denim or cotton clothing or slept on cotton sheets was complicit, pretty much.

                      There were, of course, expense in owning slaves - you had to provide food, clothes, shelter.... and if you could do the same work with a one-time up front purchase of a tractor or cotton gin, or cotton press or anything else that offset that expense - it was, indeed, an economic calculation.
                      I think most modern people seem to not understand that the industrial revolution caused one of the biggest changes, in human history. Most of human history, if you needed something done, it took an army of people or animals to make it happen. A single tractor, back hoe, dump truck, paver, concrete truck, etc can do the labor it would take 20 people to do, in a fraction of the time. There’s a reason slavery is mainly practiced in backwoods or in the sex trade today. The fact is that all the civil war did was push up the time table by a few decades. I highly doubt that slavery would have lasted much past the 1890’s.
                      "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
                      GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by JimL View Post
                        Sorry Tea, but you are wrong. The white southern democrats began to revolt in 1948 with the split of the Dixiecrats over civil rights, that revolt culminated in the 60's after Johnsons signing of the CRA and the VRA. Sure, it wasn't a total revolt, and of course African American southerners who were previously republican but blocked from voting, were now able to vote and voted democrat, but the obvious cause for the switch was the democrats stand on civil rights which was of course in direct response to the white supremacist souths oppression of African Americans.
                        No, I am right and you are wrong. The data - and the history - support me, not you. The South DID NOT become solidly Republican until the 1990's - 20 YEARS after the Civil Right's Movement was OVER.

                        The Civil Right's Movement WAS NOT the cause of the South going from Blue to Red.
                        "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

                        "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

                        My Personal Blog

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                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View Post
                          Jimmy doesn’t get that slavery was a dying institution that likely would have been dead before 1900 in the south, even if the south would have won the civil war.
                          While I believe this is correct, it probably had a negative effect on the South. The entire economy in the South was tied to agriculture and the 'industrial' end of that was tied to slavery. Just as we talk about the doomsday scenarios of automation, the Southern plantation owners probably had similar fears of mechanization.

                          Conversely, mechanization made slavery obsolete once it hit the fields. So they would have been right that it would shift their business model but wrong that it would be a bad thing for business.

                          In another thread I mentioned the Black migration north that occurs in the 1920's - mechanization was the root cause. Once a tractor could harvest a field, you only need one guy to drive a tractor, not dozens of field hands to pick.
                          "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

                          "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

                          My Personal Blog

                          My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

                          Quill Sword

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by JimL View Post
                            Tea, the assertion by BtC was that, as stated above, the cause of the war was that foot soldiers didn't want their possessions siezed. First off that's just dumb. It may have been an effect of the war, but it had nothing to do with the cause of the war.
                            Do you know why Lincoln kept making speeches about 'preserving the Union'? And Davis was making similar speeches about 'state's rights'? It's because NEITHER the North nor the South could field ARMIES on 'slavery'. Northern mommies weren't gonna send their lily white little boys to die to free slaves. Southern mommies weren't gonna send their lily white little boys to preserve some plantation owner's right to hold slaves.

                            That didn't change until the war was in full throttle - at that point both sets of mommies start worrying about what happens when an occupying army arrives - and Little Johnnies from both sides start filling out the ranks so that they don't lose the farm.

                            Incidentally, standing armies are mostly a modern thing (yeah, yeah, Rome) - all nations had professional soldiers but the rank and file were usually recruited farm boys. Until the mid-20th century, few nations could field an army without them.
                            "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

                            "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

                            My Personal Blog

                            My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

                            Quill Sword

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by JimL View Post
                              If that were true, then the south wouldn't have cared about Lincolns intent to stop slavery from moving into the western territories.
                              They cared about the balance of power between slave and free states.

                              Seriously, didn't you learn this in like second grade with the rest of us?
                              "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

                              "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

                              My Personal Blog

                              My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

                              Quill Sword

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
                                While I believe this is correct, it probably had a negative effect on the South. The entire economy in the South was tied to agriculture and the 'industrial' end of that was tied to slavery. Just as we talk about the doomsday scenarios of automation, the Southern plantation owners probably had similar fears of mechanization.

                                Conversely, mechanization made slavery obsolete once it hit the fields. So they would have been right that it would shift their business model but wrong that it would be a bad thing for business.

                                In another thread I mentioned the Black migration north that occurs in the 1920's - mechanization was the root cause. Once a tractor could harvest a field, you only need one guy to drive a tractor, not dozens of field hands to pick.
                                I think Jimmy has this idea that without the north winning the Civil War, the south would still have slaves today.
                                "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
                                GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

                                Comment

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