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The War on Encryption

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  • The War on Encryption

    OK one place I usually find myself disagreeing with Republicans (and a lot of Democrats) is when it comes to things like computers and the internet.

    They are so dang clueless.

    The latest is William Barr saying that it is more important to have backdoors built into encryption so the government can get in if they need to, than it is for citizens to be safe in their identity and data.


    Some hold this view dogmatically, claiming that it is technologically impossible to provide lawful access without weakening security against unlawful access. But, in the world of cybersecurity, we do not deal in absolute guarantees but in relative risks. All systems fall short of optimality and have some residual risk of vulnerability a point which the tech community acknowledges when they propose that law enforcement can satisfy its requirements by exploiting vulnerabilities in their products. The real question is whether the residual risk of vulnerability resulting from incorporating a lawful access mechanism is materially greater than those already in the unmodified product. The Department does not believe this can be demonstrated.

    Moreover, even if there was, in theory, a slight risk differential, its significance should not be judged solely by the extent to which it falls short of theoretical optimality. Particularly with respect to encryption marketed to consumers, the significance of the risk should be assessed based on its practical effect on consumer cybersecurity, as well as its relation to the net risks that offering the product poses for society. After all, we are not talking about protecting the Nation's nuclear launch codes. Nor are we necessarily talking about the customized encryption used by large business enterprises to protect their operations. We are talking about consumer products and services such as messaging, smart phones, e-mail, and voice and data applications. If one already has an effective level of security say, by way of illustration, one that protects against 99 percent of foreseeable threats is it reasonable to incur massive further costs to move slightly closer to optimality and attain a 99.5 percent level of protection? A company would not make that expenditure; nor should society. Here, some argue that, to achieve at best a slight incremental improvement in security, it is worth imposing a massive cost on society in the form of degraded safety. This is untenable. If the choice is between a world where we can achieve a 99 percent assurance against cyber threats to consumers, while still providing law enforcement 80 percent of the access it might seek; or a world, on the other hand, where we have boosted our cybersecurity to 99.5 percent but at a cost reducing law enforcements [sic] access to zero percent the choice for society is clear.

    https://www.schneier.com/blog/archiv..._genera_1.html


    [bolding mine]

    Basically he is saying its worth the higher risk to expose our personal data to potential hacking of this backdoor in order to give the government a way to look at our stuff.


  • #2
    Originally posted by Sparko View Post
    Basically he is saying its worth the higher risk to expose our personal data to potential hacking of this backdoor in order to give the government a way to look at our stuff.
    Yeah, no. Do they need a spare key to my house in case they need to come in and look around there? Warrant. Court. Due process.

    ETA -- maybe we need something like a FISA court for this... what could POSSIBLY go wrong?
    The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
      Yeah, no. Do they need a spare key to my house in case they need to come in and look around there? Warrant. Court. Due process.

      ETA -- maybe we need something like a FISA court for this... what could POSSIBLY go wrong?
      It's bad enough with all of the unintentional holes in online security. We don't need no stinking built-in backdoors that you just know will be hacked.

      But hey, we aren't important like nuclear launch codes or anything like that. It's just our identity and money at risk.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
        Yeah, no. Do they need a spare key to my house in case they need to come in and look around there? Warrant. Court. Due process.

        ETA -- maybe we need something like a FISA court for this... what could POSSIBLY go wrong?
        Especially a government that has clearly shown to the entire country to be as corrupt and dishonest as the day is long.

        Comment


        • #5
          They could take the Chinese approach. Require an app to be installed that reads all the information once it's been decrypted for the user to be able to read it.
          Be watchful, stand firm in the faith, act like men, be strong.
          1 Corinthians 16:13

          "...he [Doherty] is no historian and he is not even conversant with the historical discussions of the very matters he wants to pontificate on."
          -Ben Witherington III

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          • #6
            Professionally, I probably lean towards Barr. Closing down investigative avenues is just going to lower conviction rates. And I get what you're saying CP, but.....the problem is with strong encryption, the government can't get in even WITH a warrant. The data is password protected, and you also cannot compel a person to provide the password because of the 5th Amendment.

            However, personally, I'm not willing to give up my personal privacy to ensure government access. I'm a bit of a privacy nerd. All my personal devices are password-protected. Some are full-disc encrypted. I use a VPN both at home and on my cell phone. I have encrypted email accounts on servers based outside the US, real social media accounts and fake social media accounts, burner email accounts and burner phones. With friends that I communicate with a lot (whom I can convince to use a separate app other than FB/Snapchat/regular SMS), I use mobile apps that offer end-to-end encryption with on-device decryption, automatic time locks, and individual passcode protection for the app itself (and associated files).
            "If you believe, take the first step, it leads to Jesus Christ. If you don't believe, take the first step all the same, for you are bidden to take it. No one wants to know about your faith or unbelief, your orders are to perform the act of obedience on the spot. Then you will find yourself in the situation where faith becomes possible and where faith exists in the true sense of the word." - Dietrich Bonhoeffer, The Cost of Discipleship

            Comment


            • #7
              Just to be clear and allow those to retract their 'amens' if they wish, I wasn't referring to the current admin or the executive branch (though, based on past abuses and overreach, that too is obviously a concern), I was referring to law enforcement and intelligence agencies, something I'm sure those on the left don't share the same sentiments.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by myth View Post
                Professionally, I probably lean towards Barr. Closing down investigative avenues is just going to lower conviction rates. And I get what you're saying CP, but.....the problem is with strong encryption, the government can't get in even WITH a warrant. The data is password protected, and you also cannot compel a person to provide the password because of the 5th Amendment.

                However, personally, I'm not willing to give up my personal privacy to ensure government access. I'm a bit of a privacy nerd. All my personal devices are password-protected. Some are full-disc encrypted. I use a VPN both at home and on my cell phone. I have encrypted email accounts on servers based outside the US, real social media accounts and fake social media accounts, burner email accounts and burner phones. With friends that I communicate with a lot (whom I can convince to use a separate app other than FB/Snapchat/regular SMS), I use mobile apps that offer end-to-end encryption with on-device decryption, automatic time locks, and individual passcode protection for the app itself (and associated files).
                Hmmm...

                I don't see the logic that says innocent citizens have to run an unnecessary risk in order that law enforcement can do something it will only need to do in a tiny fraction of the population. There are multiple links in the chain - are they all going to be that strong? And if so why should I risk getting my identity stolen so you might get the one guy that got that lucky?



                Are VPNs worth the money?
                "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

                "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

                My Personal Blog

                My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

                Quill Sword

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by myth View Post
                  Professionally, I probably lean towards Barr. Closing down investigative avenues is just going to lower conviction rates. And I get what you're saying CP, but.....the problem is with strong encryption, the government can't get in even WITH a warrant. The data is password protected, and you also cannot compel a person to provide the password because of the 5th Amendment.
                  Yes, sir, and we've already been through a version of this - FBI–Apple encryption dispute.

                  The most well-known instance of the latter category was a February 2016 court case in the United States District Court for the Central District of California. The Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) wanted Apple to create and electronically sign new software that would enable the FBI to unlock a work-issued iPhone 5C it recovered from one of the shooters who, in a December 2015 terrorist attack in San Bernardino, California, killed 14 people and injured 22. The two attackers later died in a shootout with police, having first destroyed their personal phones. The work phone was recovered intact but was locked with a four-digit password and was set to eliminate all its data after ten failed password attempts. Apple declined to create the software, and a hearing was scheduled for March 22. However, a day before the hearing was supposed to happen, the government obtained a delay, saying they had found a third party able to assist in unlocking the iPhone and, on March 28, it announced that the FBI had unlocked the iPhone and withdrew its request.


                  I have friends in the cyber security business who swear that, under a secret agreement with promises to keep it quiet, Apple did, indeed, help the FBI.
                  The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    I know!

                    We should make it illegal for criminals to encrypt their data!

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      If there is a back door to unencrypt, why bother encrypting? And I say that as a career cyber security professional for the DoD...
                      That's what
                      - She

                      Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
                      - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

                      I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
                      - Stephen R. Donaldson

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
                        Hmmm...

                        I don't see the logic that says innocent citizens have to run an unnecessary risk in order that law enforcement can do something it will only need to do in a tiny fraction of the population. There are multiple links in the chain - are they all going to be that strong? And if so why should I risk getting my identity stolen so you might get the one guy that got that lucky?



                        Are VPNs worth the money?
                        Yes, its a complicated issue. Because eventually if encryption technologies become very common and secure...and if they outpace the government's ability to hack in...we'll loose a ton of investigative avenues. So unless there is some technological/legal compromise...we either keep our privacy at the expense of a decrease in justice, or sacrifice some of our privacy to have a more effective justice system.

                        And yeah, I like having a VPN. The service I use is very popular, works well. I pay like $60-70 a year. They have apps for any kind of device you want. I first looked in to it because I was going to live away from home for several months and I wanted to be able to do my online banking over a public wifi network securely. A VPN service was the solution. I connect to their wifi, then turn on the VPN and they can't see what I'm doing. Some hacker can't steal my login credentials when I'm using a public network. As an additional bonus, I can get around geographic restrictions on some online service by just manually selecting the proxy server I want to use. I will caution you though, some tech savvy corporations will ban the IPs of known VPN proxy servers for security reasons (they want to know who and where you actually are). It's annoying to me, because I'd prefer my VPN just stay on. Perhaps some corporations will start accepting VPN IPs with something addtional, like a 2FA login step to make sure the user is who they say they are.
                        "If you believe, take the first step, it leads to Jesus Christ. If you don't believe, take the first step all the same, for you are bidden to take it. No one wants to know about your faith or unbelief, your orders are to perform the act of obedience on the spot. Then you will find yourself in the situation where faith becomes possible and where faith exists in the true sense of the word." - Dietrich Bonhoeffer, The Cost of Discipleship

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by myth View Post
                          Yes, its a complicated issue. Because eventually if encryption technologies become very common and secure...and if they outpace the government's ability to hack in...we'll loose a ton of investigative avenues. So unless there is some technological/legal compromise...we either keep our privacy at the expense of a decrease in justice, or sacrifice some of our privacy to have a more effective justice system.

                          And yeah, I like having a VPN. The service I use is very popular, works well. I pay like $60-70 a year. They have apps for any kind of device you want. I first looked in to it because I was going to live away from home for several months and I wanted to be able to do my online banking over a public wifi network securely. A VPN service was the solution. I connect to their wifi, then turn on the VPN and they can't see what I'm doing. Some hacker can't steal my login credentials when I'm using a public network. As an additional bonus, I can get around geographic restrictions on some online service by just manually selecting the proxy server I want to use. I will caution you though, some tech savvy corporations will ban the IPs of known VPN proxy servers for security reasons (they want to know who and where you actually are). It's annoying to me, because I'd prefer my VPN just stay on. Perhaps some corporations will start accepting VPN IPs with something addtional, like a 2FA login step to make sure the user is who they say they are.
                          Thanks! I've been thinking about it.
                          "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

                          "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

                          My Personal Blog

                          My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

                          Quill Sword

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            I'm impressed that we've made it 13 posts and nobody has posted that silly Benjamin Franklin quote about people who give up liberty for security deserving neither.
                            "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
                              I'm impressed that we've made it 13 posts and nobody has posted that silly Benjamin Franklin quote about people who give up liberty for security deserving neither.
                              I considered it, but it seemed superfluous given that it expresses the very nature of our conversation. :P
                              "If you believe, take the first step, it leads to Jesus Christ. If you don't believe, take the first step all the same, for you are bidden to take it. No one wants to know about your faith or unbelief, your orders are to perform the act of obedience on the spot. Then you will find yourself in the situation where faith becomes possible and where faith exists in the true sense of the word." - Dietrich Bonhoeffer, The Cost of Discipleship

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