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The Death Of Plastic Bags...

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  • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
    I wonder what society would be, if every member were just like me.
    Fairly stinky - dude, clean your boots after you've been to the paddock!

    "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

    "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

    My Personal Blog

    My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

    Quill Sword

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    • Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
      Er, what?

      Is it the individual's role to be servant to society, or member of society? You appear to be arguing the former.
      Former.
      "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
        Fairly stinky - dude, clean your boots after you've been to the paddock!

        I'm no longer in the horse/cow business. For now.
        The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
          I'm no longer in the horse/cow business. For now.
          So... you're just "Poke" now?


          This has nothing to do with little jimmy's "moscow poke" jibe, does it?

          I'm always still in trouble again

          "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
          "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
          "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

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          • Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
            Former.
            Well, there's your problem - how can the servant run the household? In a democratic republic, power flows from the people to the government. Oh yeah, I already know there are issues - I was just discussing one of them.
            "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

            "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

            My Personal Blog

            My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

            Quill Sword

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            • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
              So... you're just "Poke" now?


              This has nothing to do with little jimmy's "moscow poke" jibe, does it?
              Actually, while I have no cows of my own at present, I still serve as the poker of cows for friends and neighbors.
              The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
                I didn't argue the government didn't have power nor did I argue that the constitution was on par with Scripture - it isn't.

                But there HAS been a change in the balance of powers within the US in the last seventy years - and no, actually the federal government hasn't banned 'more innocuous' things previous to these changes.

                What we are seeing is an erosion of the power of the individual - and the freedom of the individual. Grocery bags aren't even the canary in the coalmine - that poor thing has been dead for decades. But they are yet another grain of sand in the pile of growing Federal power.

                Nothing in the rule book says we can't start digging now. And frankly, if grocery bags can destroy the world, it's already doomed.
                Yes, the federal government has banned a number of things that are more innocuous, including books, hemp, condoms, kinder eggs...at one time abolitionist pamphlets were banned, all sorts of things. And that's just on the Federal level. This discussion is about an issue on a State level, and the amount of bizarre things banned at the State level in the US are truly weird including honking your horn in front of sandwich shops in Arkansas, kissing your spouse on Sundays in Connecticut, no internet cafes in Florida, shooting fish in Indiana, no pumping your own gas in NJ, minors can't legally play pinball in South Carolina. Somehow the Republic has made it through all of these crazy laws and bans after all of these years.

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                • Originally posted by Adrift View Post
                  Yes, the federal government has banned a number of things that are more innocuous, including books, hemp, condoms, kinder eggs...at one time abolitionist pamphlets were banned, all sorts of things. And that's just on the Federal level. This discussion is about an issue on a State level, and the amount of bizarre things banned at the State level in the US are truly weird including honking your horn in front of sandwich shops in Arkansas, kissing your spouse on Sundays in Connecticut, no internet cafes in Florida, shooting fish in Indiana, no pumping your own gas in NJ, minors can't legally play pinball in South Carolina. Somehow the Republic has made it through all of these crazy laws and bans after all of these years.
                  And let's accept this for the sake of argument - does that make it a) right or b) any less intrusive? No. Then why, exactly, can we not simply decide enough is enough? Because it's just grocery bags? Well, it was just tea - but it certainly got the message across to King George.

                  And the whole 'we're saving the environment' has been made suspect by the ever changing standards. Maybe the environment will be just fine without the Federal government - or the state government - worrying about grocery bags. Personally, I'd rather go back to paper.
                  "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

                  "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

                  My Personal Blog

                  My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

                  Quill Sword

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
                    I've been thinking about this - the question of why so many Christians oppose banning grocery bags. I think we've been limiting the scope so much that we don't see what is being opposed.

                    Over the last seventy years, a lot of the American Constitution has been upended, amended, and lost. We teach our children only that the People are the source of authority - which is true - but not how the delicate balances of individual versus collective, powerful versus weak, Federal versus State, and national versus local are maintained. Taking the Senate from state legislatures was a horrible mistake - it took one of the limits of Federal power - the check of State power - away.

                    Eighty years ago, a ban of bags would have been laughed out of court - government does not have the power to govern how business' conduct business where it does not impact on fairness or taxation (and not much on the first one). Even the interstate commerce clause wouldn't have granted the Federal government most of the liberties it takes in the name of environmentalism. Rather than convince people to make changes, government forces people to make changes.

                    That's why Germany is all clean and sparkly - it does not value individual freedom as America does. Most Americans would find Germany's brand of democracy stiffing - where it seems libertine to Germans.

                    More and more regulation, justified by the ends, however noble, still erodes more and more freedom. The balance has been upset - we're tumbling down the hill.

                    So, as a single issue, they are just grocery bags. But they aren't just a single issue - it's yet another grain of sand, burying the freedom our Constitution guarantees.
                    "Conservatives" are all about freedom, but they themselves tend to lack it in abundance. You are controlled by technology. You groan about regulations aimed at limiting harms, because they reduce your so-called freedoms, while you gladly adopt technologies that literally make you dependent.

                    People are increasingly unskilled, they can't even cook anymore, living in a sort of convenience bubble - controlled by someone else. Most people can't cope with the kind of freedom you want them to have; they are too lazy, unskilled and incompetent. People can't magically have good judgement, if they aren't trained, or don't learn skills, they will make mistakes. Those mistakes harm others.

                    Regulations are there to prevent people taking advantage of those mistakes from gaining ever more control or allowing people to harm others. Plastic, harms the environment. Currently there is a world of people that deny this - they spread false claims, make jokes about the need to be responsible, etc. This is harming people's ability to act rationally or be good. I don't care if you feel like your freedom is being constrained, you freedom is harming others. It needs to be reigned in.

                    The US doesn't work. This is increasingly obvious. We tried negative liberty, it has failed. It is destroying the world, while letting the worst qualities of humans run amok. Enough already.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Zara View Post
                      "Conservatives" are all about freedom, but they themselves tend to lack it in abundance. You are controlled by technology. You groan about regulations aimed at limiting harms, because they reduce your so-called freedoms, while you gladly adopt technologies that literally make you dependent.

                      People are increasingly unskilled, they can't even cook anymore, living in a sort of convenience bubble - controlled by someone else. Most people can't cope with the kind of freedom you want them to have; they are too lazy, unskilled and incompetent. People can't magically have good judgement, if they aren't trained, or don't learn skills, they will make mistakes. Those mistakes harm others.

                      Regulations are there to prevent people taking advantage of those mistakes from gaining ever more control or allowing people to harm others. Plastic, harms the environment. Currently there is a world of people that deny this - they spread false claims, make jokes about the need to be responsible, etc. This is harming people's ability to act rationally or be good. I don't care if you feel like your freedom is being constrained, you freedom is harming others. It needs to be reigned in.

                      The US doesn't work. This is increasingly obvious. We tried negative liberty, it has failed. It is destroying the world, while letting the worst qualities of humans run amok. Enough already.
                      Wow, do you have fever with these fits? It's like you looked for the broadest brush you could find and dunked it in stupid paint, and started flailing away.
                      The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
                        Well, there's your problem - how can the servant run the household? In a democratic republic, power flows from the people to the government. Oh yeah, I already know there are issues - I was just discussing one of them.
                        Um, what? I can't make heads or tails of this post.

                        The idea that citizens are subservient to the state should not be all that controversial; people speak of "civic duties" all the time. It is also not all that controversial that people can be forced to sacrifice their lives for the good of society, as there is little push to abolish the draft in the US, for instance.

                        I believe my POV is justifiable when considering the society that God officially ordained the one time this ever happened. Individual rights seemed limited to ensuring legal justice and were certainly muted compared to the flipside. Modern individualists would find stoning for working on the Sabbath or having sex with another man to be offensive, but God thought the order of society was more important than these "rights", as moderns would no doubt call them. Modern individualists decry as socialism or worse any implication that people do not have unlimited rights to use of their own property on their own land (Christians often among these), but God's gleaning laws directly refute these. Your logic suggests taking severe issue with the laws God set up in the Pentateuch; there are a cascade of regulations covering nearly every scenario imaginable.
                        "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                          Wow, do you have fever with these fits? It's like you looked for the broadest brush you could find and dunked it in stupid paint, and started flailing away.
                          Not as stupid as the US and its faux conservatism. All I see is a bunch of people that believe in conspiracy theories, while trashing the planet to live their greedy 'choice'. I.e., negative liberty run amok with people that know how to control morons with media. Until I hear sense coming from the US conservatism, then this is the brush. And until liberalism stops being a corporate control fest, they get painted with the evil brush too. I.e., your entire society is a problem.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Zara View Post
                            Not as stupid as the US and its faux conservatism. All I see is a bunch of people that believe in conspiracy theories, while trashing the planet to live their greedy 'choice'. I.e., negative liberty run amok with people that know how to control morons with media. Until I hear sense coming from the US conservatism, then this is the brush. And until liberalism stops being a corporate control fest, they get painted with the evil brush too. I.e., your entire society is a problem.
                            At least you're literate in your delusion.
                            The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Zara View Post
                              "Conservatives" are all about freedom, but they themselves tend to lack it in abundance. You are controlled by technology. You groan about regulations aimed at limiting harms, because they reduce your so-called freedoms, while you gladly adopt technologies that literally make you dependent.

                              People are increasingly unskilled, they can't even cook anymore, living in a sort of convenience bubble - controlled by someone else. Most people can't cope with the kind of freedom you want them to have; they are too lazy, unskilled and incompetent. People can't magically have good judgement, if they aren't trained, or don't learn skills, they will make mistakes. Those mistakes harm others.

                              Regulations are there to prevent people taking advantage of those mistakes from gaining ever more control or allowing people to harm others. Plastic, harms the environment. Currently there is a world of people that deny this - they spread false claims, make jokes about the need to be responsible, etc. This is harming people's ability to act rationally or be good. I don't care if you feel like your freedom is being constrained, you freedom is harming others. It needs to be reigned in.

                              The US doesn't work. This is increasingly obvious. We tried negative liberty, it has failed. It is destroying the world, while letting the worst qualities of humans run amok. Enough already.
                              Er, no.
                              "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

                              "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

                              My Personal Blog

                              My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

                              Quill Sword

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
                                Er, no.
                                But it was quite a screed, eh?
                                The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                                Comment

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