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Mass Shooting El Paso...

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  • Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
    Like I said, I think Sparky is over estimating the effect - but I do have to grant it exists.

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    • Originally posted by Adrift View Post
      How big do you think a military base is? Even on very large bases like Ramstein, we had more than enough Security Forces, and other armed personal patrolling the gates and streets that a gunman in his right mind would have thought twice before open-firing. And I'm not just talking about carrying an M9 either. I carried, at the very least, a loaded M-16 with me at almost all times while in uniform. And again, armories are typically close by. You can arm a couple dozen people in no time flat. That's sort of the point of a military base. The fact that one of the worst shootings ever happened on a military base should tell people that soft targets aren't that big of a concern for a nut. I feel like I'm in bizarro land seeing people attempt to argue to the contrary having actually served, and knowing exactly what to expect on a military base.

      ....
      Redstone and Kirkland are both freaking huge... Kirkland more so.

      I think Hood is probably an exception - but I also know that the lack of nearby armed personnel was considered to be a factor in the findings.

      The bases I've been on most (Gunter and Maxwell - Gunter used to be a base) had few visibly armed personnel back in the day - but that was before 9/11 and Hood came after.
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      • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
        And, of course, we have the whole issue of causality. Do mass shootings happen in gun-free zones because they are gun-free? Or do they happen in "gun-free zones" because these zones are typically declared where large numbers of people gather and someone looking to kill large numbers of people is going to go where large numbers of people gather.
        I believe the correct answer is "yes". A large number of soft-targets is going to be attractive to anyone who doesn't want his victims shooting back.
        Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
        But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
        Than a fool in the eyes of God


        From "Fools Gold" by Petra

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        • Originally posted by Adrift View Post
          We haven't tried my idea yet, which is banning all guns except for police and military, but that's unlikely to happen in a nation so devoted to weapons.
          Under your proposal, my sister would most likely have been raped and killed, she was armed however with an AR-15...totally different outcome.
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          • Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
            Redstone and Kirkland are both freaking huge... Kirkland more so.

            I think Hood is probably an exception - but I also know that the lack of nearby armed personnel was considered to be a factor in the findings.

            The bases I've been on most (Gunter and Maxwell - Gunter used to be a base) had few visibly armed personnel back in the day - but that was before 9/11 and Hood came after.
            I was stationed at both very large and very small bases. You're not necessarily going to visibly see a lot of people armed (those types will typically be at the gate or patrolling in police units and Humvees), but there will be SFs and MPs relatively close by in just about any direction. I suppose my biggest issue with this argument is that people are trying to downplay a place where we can rationally expect a very quick and well armed response. I was in the military pre and post 9/11. I distinctly remember that as soon as I saw reports of the second plane hitting the towers the klaxons on the base went off, and people ran to the armory (myself included. I ended up pulling a double-shift with an M60 machine gun). I feel that in a scenario where a gunman is shooting people on the actual base the response would be pretty darn quick (articles on the 2009 Fort Hood shooting state the approx. response time was 4 minutes).

            Technically a police officer could open fire in the station's break room, and kill a half dozen or more fellow cops before someone runs to grab a gun. If we can't reasonably expect places that have tons of quickly accessible weapons to be much safer than places like Walmart then I don't think arming everyone to the teeth will necessarily make much of a difference.

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            • Originally posted by Adrift View Post
              I think they target churches and schools because that's where a lot of people are. I don't think it has much to do with whether or not the people there are armed. Heck, one of the worst mass shootings was on a military base (Ft. Hood).



              We haven't tried my idea yet, which is banning all guns except for police and military, but that's unlikely to happen in a nation so devoted to weapons.
              Because no politician or government official is that suicidal.

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              • Originally posted by seanD View Post
                Because no politician or government official is that suicidal.
                Yes, I realize that.

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                • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                  So, if I really cared about the victims I would be using their deaths as a means to try to shame and blame you and the other liberals in a game of political war, like you are?

                  No, just the opposite, if you actually cared you'd be using their deaths and their families suffering to shame those of you who continue to defend against a strengthening of the gun laws.

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                  • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                    EGGzackly!

                    Just like - if you REALLY care about poor people, you'll arrange to keep them "on the plantation" with meager financial assistance with no real plan to help them get out of their situation. THAT, sir, is true commie compassion!
                    No, the above is just your excuse for treating human beings like dogs.

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                    • Originally posted by Adrift View Post
                      Yes, I realize that.
                      Thing is, what they'll do is worse for conservatives. At least with an outright gun ban, they know what's coming and what they need to do. Instead, they'll ban guns with gradual gun control creep. Red Flag laws, for example, is the epitome of a trojan horse gun ban.

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                      • Originally posted by JimL View Post
                        No, the above is just your excuse for treating human beings like dogs.
                        Is something bothering you? You're not usually this level of jackass.
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                        • Originally posted by JimL View Post
                          No, the above is just your excuse for treating human beings like dogs.
                          better to treat them like weapons to bludgeon your political opponents with huh?

                          You seem to be the type to hope for more mass shootings so you have more ammunition to use to get your way politically.

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                          • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                            better to treat them like weapons to bludgeon your political opponents with huh?

                            You seem to be the type to hope for more mass shootings so you have more ammunition to use to get your way politically.
                            Prior to the TDS epidemic I'd scoff at such a statement as the ravings of paranoid conspiracy theories, but since that time we've had folks like Bill Maher admitting to hoping for economic collapse just because that would hurt Trump politically and then on Netflix's "The Break with Michelle Wolf" they asked the audience the question "Are You Sort Of Hoping We Don't Get Peace With North Korea So You Wouldn't Have To Give Trump Credit?" 71% said yes. These idiots would rather see a nuclear armed North Korea than Trump get any credit for disarmament.

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                            • Originally posted by Adrift View Post
                              Stop speaking in broken English, and The Washington Post is wrong. As a member of Security Forces, I was armed at all times while (in uniform) on the military base, and armories are typically not very far away.
                              It may depend on the command policy. The Marines at our installation were not routinely armed. The times I could recall seeing them with weapons were after the Lebanon barracks bombing and 9/11. But there certainly were armories at both locations (Barstow Marine Base is split 11 miles apart between Barstow and Yermo)

                              Edited: oh and when highly classified projects were at the depot there certainly were Marines with sidearms on duty.
                              Last edited by DesertBerean; 08-09-2019, 03:13 PM.
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                              • Originally posted by Adrift View Post
                                As I pointed out, Ramstein appears to be the second largest. So, I've got some experience on large bases.
                                I'll bet you were never lost downrange on the tank live fire exercise!
                                The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

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