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  • Originally posted by Christianbookworm View Post



    In the meantime, how do we do something about the root of the problem? Or is that a job for the Holy Spirit?
    We start identifying the problems that are contributing and work at either correcting or mitigating them. The warehouse schooling system, using shooter video games as baby sitters, over use of social media, too early allowing social media, using technology to raise our kids, underplaying the evils of bullying, overplaying the evils of bullying, not caring about the victim, not caring about the bully, and the list goes on from here. We do something.

    But the main thing we as Christians do it point to Christ - the only real solutions will come through Him.
    "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

    "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

    My Personal Blog

    My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

    Quill Sword

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
      And how, exactly, is this a rational reason to allow people to own fully automatic weapons? This broad and rather silly brush would, if we accept it, argue against any and all gun control - so you have just put forth an argument for letting the known mentally unstable and violent felons buy guns with no restrictions whatsoever.

      Seriously, 90% of the folks here actually ARE pro-gun control - the argument should be on the specifics of how to do that fairly. But no, we argue about stupid crap like whether or not guns are force multipliers.

      Yeah, no one needs guns that can kill dozens in seconds. And the laws already on the books do need to be enforced. And everyone should learn gun safety.
      If it weren't for the Resurrection of Jesus, we'd all be in DEEP TROUBLE!

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
        We start identifying the problems that are contributing and work at either correcting or mitigating them. The warehouse schooling system, using shooter video games as baby sitters, over use of social media, too early allowing social media, using technology to raise our kids, underplaying the evils of bullying, overplaying the evils of bullying, not caring about the victim, not caring about the bully, and the list goes on from here. We do something.

        But the main thing we as Christians do it point to Christ - the only real solutions will come through Him.
        Out of curiosity, how would you respond to the meme that argues that the twin tack of blaming video games and a lack of Christ looks bad in light of Japan, which is 1% Christian, plays more video games than the US, and has virtually no gun violence?
        "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

        Comment


        • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
          Weren't you just complaining of straw man arguments?
          Follow the logic - if the simple fact that there are other ways to kill people mitigates the need to prevent crazies from having guns, it also mitigates crazies from having automatic weapons. If we accept the premise, then all gun control measures are wrong - including the ones most of us agree aren't bad laws.

          The straw man is the 'but if the crazy is determined enough' argument.
          "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

          "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

          My Personal Blog

          My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

          Quill Sword

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Christianbookworm View Post
            Yeah, no one needs guns that can kill dozens in seconds. And the laws already on the books do need to be enforced. And everyone should learn gun safety.
            That.

            If the laws already in place aren't being enforced then what good is passing new laws if they aren't going to be enforced either?

            I'm always still in trouble again

            "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
            "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
            "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

            Comment


            • Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
              Out of curiosity, how would you respond to the meme that argues that the twin tack of blaming video games and a lack of Christ looks bad in light of Japan, which is 1% Christian, plays more video games than the US, and has virtually no gun violence?
              Japan is a very different case - it's still largely an agonistic and incredibly homogeneous culture. Their level of gun control is unworkable and unconstitutional in the US. There's little surprise that they have less gun violence - it's really hard to commit gun violence without a gun. So it's a cute meme and a complete non sequitur.
              "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

              "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

              My Personal Blog

              My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

              Quill Sword

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
                Follow the logic - if the simple fact that there are other ways to kill people mitigates the need to prevent crazies from having guns, it also mitigates crazies from having automatic weapons. If we accept the premise, then all gun control measures are wrong - including the ones most of us agree aren't bad laws.

                The straw man is the 'but if the crazy is determined enough' argument.
                No, no, no.

                You specifically stated

                And how, exactly, is this a rational reason to allow people to own fully automatic weapons?


                Fully automatic weapons are pretty much illegal to own. Claiming otherwise is the straw man here.

                I'm always still in trouble again

                "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                Comment


                • One strawman argument I would like to see dispensed of is "if guns kill people, spoons make me fat". I'm going to pick on my cousin because she was promoting it on Facebook today. One can eat without a spoon; one cannot shoot without a gun. (Yes, there are other ways to kill, but as Teal reminded us, guns are a force multiplier.)
                  "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
                    One strawman argument I would like to see dispensed of is "if guns kill people, spoons make me fat". I'm going to pick on my cousin because she was promoting it on Facebook today. One can eat without a spoon; one cannot shoot without a gun. (Yes, there are other ways to kill, but as Teal reminded us, guns are a force multiplier.)
                    00000000000000ab000-00aaf.jpg

                    I think the point is that it is wrong to place the blame on an inanimate object rather than the person using it. Sort of like blaming a pen for spelling mistakes.

                    I'm always still in trouble again

                    "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                    "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                    "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                      That.

                      If the laws already in place aren't being enforced then what good is passing new laws if they aren't going to be enforced either?
                      And this would be the other one. Yeah, I've heard the numbers - but they work out to about 1.5 per jurisdiction (the US has over 20,000 governments). So it's not a good argument unless you show that the law in question was actually not enforced in that jurisdiction.

                      The laws I think we need to work on are the ones that allow the Federal government to prevent state laws from being subverted via interstate commerce. This, I fully grant, is NOT easy and would have to be very carefully crafted to not end up with a bigger elephant in the room. But it's still not okay that criminals in New York simply drive south to purchase weapons in states with less stringent gun control measures and then take them back to New York. New York shouldn't override Alabama's laws; we shouldn't override theirs.
                      "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

                      "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

                      My Personal Blog

                      My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

                      Quill Sword

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                        No, no, no.

                        You specifically stated

                        And how, exactly, is this a rational reason to allow people to own fully automatic weapons?


                        Fully automatic weapons are pretty much illegal to own. Claiming otherwise is the straw man here.
                        I'm aware they are presently illegal - but the logic of her claim is disputes ALL gun control - including existing laws that most people think are reasonable (excepting Jed, who actually took the no gun control whatsoever position). If we follow that logic, we should overturn existing laws as well as not establishing new ones.

                        Not. A. Straw. Man.
                        "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

                        "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

                        My Personal Blog

                        My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

                        Quill Sword

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                          As an aside, London, which has a murder rate higher than New York City's, has now enacted Knife Control (the weapon of choice) to try to stem the homicides.
                          Yes, I'd heard.


                          That Europe is going insane doesn't undermine my argument.
                          "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

                          "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

                          My Personal Blog

                          My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

                          Quill Sword

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
                            And this would be the other one. Yeah, I've heard the numbers - but they work out to about 1.5 per jurisdiction (the US has over 20,000 governments). So it's not a good argument unless you show that the law in question was actually not enforced in that jurisdiction.

                            The laws I think we need to work on are the ones that allow the Federal government to prevent state laws from being subverted via interstate commerce. This, I fully grant, is NOT easy and would have to be very carefully crafted to not end up with a bigger elephant in the room. But it's still not okay that criminals in New York simply drive south to purchase weapons in states with less stringent gun control measures and then take them back to New York. New York shouldn't override Alabama's laws; we shouldn't override theirs.
                            The examples I'm thinking of are the federal gun control laws passed during the Clinton Administration. The enforcement of them was almost negligible. For example, after working so hard to pass the Brady Law and the the Federal Assault Weapons Ban (which prohibited firearms based on their appearance rather than functionality) in 1993 and 1994 respectively of the 23,000 cases that had been referred for prosecution by the FBI, the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives only arrested 56 people.

                            And since universal background checks appears to be one of the things with a decent chance of passage, let's take a look at that.

                            Since firearms dealers ask prospective buyers about prior convictions and the like even before they give them ATF Form 4473 to fill out (which starts the FBI check) and because the vast majority of those applicants who don't pass are rejected because of a prior criminal conviction, restraining order, are fugitives and the like, this actually qualifies as a federal crime -- a felony -- of submitting false information.

                            But, in one recent year of the approximately 80,000 people who were turned down as a result of a background check only 44 people were prosecuted. In the first two years after the National Instant Criminal Background Check System (NICS) was first set up the Justice Department Inspector General discovered that only 154 people out of 120,000 denials were prosecuted.

                            So, why isn't the government enforcing the laws already on the books rather than wanting new ones? Now, I'm sure a significant portion of those who are rejected didn't realize that they were violating the law (perhaps they didn't realize that their conviction was for a felony or that it happened so long ago that they "forgot") but that can hardly account for such a low prosecution rate.

                            One explanation was provided by Vice President Joe Biden when he was asked about this in 2013 while talking to representatives from the National Rifle Association during a White House gun violence task force meeting. According to Jim Baker, the NRA's Director of Federal Affairs Biden responded, "And to your point, Mr. Baker, regarding the lack of prosecutions on lying on Form 4473s, we simply don’t have the time or manpower to prosecute everybody who lies on a form, that checks a wrong box, that answers a question inaccurately."

                            And it appears that, according to Justice Department data compiled by the Transactional Records Access Clearinghouse at Syracuse University (widely regarded as one of the best researchers on federal prosecution performances and trends), federal prosecutions of firearm violations in general dropped substantially during the Obama Administration. This was verified by a study conducted by the Executive Office of U.S. Attorneys which found that there has been a 25% drop in the number of prosecutions of firearm violation cases by the Justice Department recommended by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (BATF) than the Bush Administration did.


                            So before we start passing new laws does it not seem reasonable that we actually start enforcing the laws on the books and begin prosecuting those who willfully lie on federal forms trying to illegally obtain firearms?

                            I'm always still in trouble again

                            "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                            "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                            "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                              The examples I'm thinking of are the federal gun control laws passed during the Clinton Administration. The enforcement of them was almost negligible. For example, after working so hard to pass the Brady Law and the the Federal Assault Weapons Ban (which prohibited firearms based on their appearance rather than functionality) in 1993 and 1994 respectively of the 23,000 cases that had been referred for prosecution by the FBI, the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives only arrested 56 people.

                              And since universal background checks appears to be one of the things with a decent chance of passage, let's take a look at that.

                              Since firearms dealers ask prospective buyers about prior convictions and the like even before they give them ATF Form 4473 to fill out (which starts the FBI check) and because the vast majority of those applicants who don't pass are rejected because of a prior criminal conviction, restraining order, are fugitives and the like, this actually qualifies as a federal crime -- a felony -- of submitting false information.

                              But, in one recent year of the approximately 80,000 people who were turned down as a result of a background check only 44 people were prosecuted. In the first two years after the National Instant Criminal Background Check System (NICS) was first set up the Justice Department Inspector General discovered that only 154 people out of 120,000 denials were prosecuted.

                              So, why isn't the government enforcing the laws already on the books rather than wanting new ones? Now, I'm sure a significant portion of those who are rejected didn't realize that they were violating the law (perhaps they didn't realize that their conviction was for a felony or that it happened so long ago that they "forgot") but that can hardly account for such a low prosecution rate.

                              One explanation was provided by Vice President Joe Biden when he was asked about this in 2013 while talking to representatives from the National Rifle Association during a White House gun violence task force meeting. According to Jim Baker, the NRA's Director of Federal Affairs Biden responded, "And to your point, Mr. Baker, regarding the lack of prosecutions on lying on Form 4473s, we simply don’t have the time or manpower to prosecute everybody who lies on a form, that checks a wrong box, that answers a question inaccurately."

                              And it appears that, according to Justice Department data compiled by the Transactional Records Access Clearinghouse at Syracuse University (widely regarded as one of the best researchers on federal prosecution performances and trends), federal prosecutions of firearm violations in general dropped substantially during the Obama Administration. This was verified by a study conducted by the Executive Office of U.S. Attorneys which found that there has been a 25% drop in the number of prosecutions of firearm violation cases by the Justice Department recommended by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (BATF) than the Bush Administration did.


                              So before we start passing new laws does it not seem reasonable that we actually start enforcing the laws on the books and begin prosecuting those who willfully lie on federal forms trying to illegally obtain firearms?
                              I'm much more concerned with enforcing actual gun control laws than documentation errors. Honestly, what idiot made that illegal anyway? I could see it if you were showing a significant attempt to commit fraud - but a law that can be broken by checking a box mistakenly is a dumb law. Rewrite it - and move on.
                              "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

                              "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

                              My Personal Blog

                              My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

                              Quill Sword

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
                                I'm much more concerned with enforcing actual gun control laws than documentation errors. Honestly, what idiot made that illegal anyway? I could see it if you were showing a significant attempt to commit fraud - but a law that can be broken by checking a box mistakenly is a dumb law. Rewrite it - and move on.
                                Many gun control laws are dumb. The aforementioned Assault Weapons Ban is an excellent example since it was, as I noted, based upon the cosmetic appearance of the firearm rather than its functionality. And the violations of it and the Brady Law were more than just documentation errors. As noted "of the 23,000 cases that had been referred for prosecution by the FBI, the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives only arrested 56 people." 56 out of 23,000 referred for prosecution. What's that, something like 0.002%? And that's just the number of arrests. Wanna bet only a fraction of those were prosecuted?

                                I'm always still in trouble again

                                "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                                "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                                "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                                Comment

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