Mass Shooting El Paso...

[Bill the Cat]

More correftly, Manson was the inspiration for the White Album.

Wrong.

Source: https://www.rollingstone.com/culture/culture-features/charles-manson-how-cult-leaders-twisted-beatles-obsession-inspired-family-murders-107176/

Charles Manson had an easy explanation for why he ordered the deaths of the family of Leno LaBianca and residents at Sharon Tate’s house at the hands of his “Family”: “It’s the Beatles, the music they’re putting out,” he told the district attorney who sent him to death row. “These kids listen to this music and pick up the message. It’s subliminal.”

A half-century has passed since the Manson Family carried out the brutal, stunning Tate-LaBianca murders in August of 1969, and their supposed link to the Beatles remains confounding. The words “Healter [sic] Skelter” had been painted in victims’ blood on the LaBiancas’ fridge, but the reference’s significance did not come to light until the trial. When Charles Manson and his followers faced a judge for the crimes a year later, prosecutor Vincent Bugliosi explained that the motive for the killings came from Manson’s twisted misinterpretation of lyrics on the White Album, which was released in November 1968, months before the murders. In Manson’s mind, benign songs like “Blackbird,” “Piggies” and, most prominently, “Helter Skelter,” foretold a bloody, apocalyptic race war. But when the battle never began, he decided to kick-start it with the murders.

© Copyright Original Source

But it doesn't really matter as it relates to this specific discussion. We can also ask if 'The Matrix' contributed to Columbine. Exposure to violence is an issue, but not the issue I am addressing.

We KNOW that when we feed paranoia it will provoke more people to act on their fears. Trump IS the POTUS and he is feeding, even creating, irrational fear at each rally, and with a significant percentage of his tweets. And he bears the resposibility of the consequences of his decision to use that sort of fear to protect or grow his power and security in the office of POTUS when the specific elements of fear he has stoked are the stated reasons for a violent event like these shootings.

Jim

Bologna, Jim. Just plain bologna. As proofed by Manson and people like him, paranoia will be fed regardless of intent of the speaker. Trump is not "feeding paranoia" any more than the Beatles.

[oxmixmudd]

I don't think so.

Oops, sorry. At this point my memory of the correlation between manson and the white album has apparently gotten fuzzy. But the actual correlation (took a little wikipedia refresher) makes BTC's question completely irrelavent.

The shooter wasnt acting on imagined 'hidden' references, he was acting on the direct and literal meaning of Trump's words.

Jim

[Bill the Cat]

Oops, sorry. At this point my memory of the correlation between manson and the white album has apparently gotten fuzzy. But the actual correlation (took a little wikipedia refresher) makes BTC's question completely irrelavent.

The shooter wasnt acting on imagined 'hidden' references, he was acting on the direct and literal meaning of Trump's words.

Jim

No he wasn't.

[oxmixmudd]

Wrong.

Source: https://www.rollingstone.com/culture/culture-features/charles-manson-how-cult-leaders-twisted-beatles-obsession-inspired-family-murders-107176/

Charles Manson had an easy explanation for why he ordered the deaths of the family of Leno LaBianca and residents at Sharon Tate’s house at the hands of his “Family”: “It’s the Beatles, the music they’re putting out,” he told the district attorney who sent him to death row. “These kids listen to this music and pick up the message. It’s subliminal.”

A half-century has passed since the Manson Family carried out the brutal, stunning Tate-LaBianca murders in August of 1969, and their supposed link to the Beatles remains confounding. The words “Healter [sic] Skelter” had been painted in victims’ blood on the LaBiancas’ fridge, but the reference’s significance did not come to light until the trial. When Charles Manson and his followers faced a judge for the crimes a year later, prosecutor Vincent Bugliosi explained that the motive for the killings came from Manson’s twisted misinterpretation of lyrics on the White Album, which was released in November 1968, months before the murders. In Manson’s mind, benign songs like “Blackbird,” “Piggies” and, most prominently, “Helter Skelter,” foretold a bloody, apocalyptic race war. But when the battle never began, he decided to kick-start it with the murders.

© Copyright Original Source

Bologna, Jim. Just plain bologna. As proofed by Manson and people like him, paranoia will be fed regardless of intent of the speaker. Trump is not "feeding paranoia" any more than the Beatles.

I misremeberred the correlation and assumed your question had a different implication than it did.

Your last comment is pure naivete. History has shown over and over the consequences of leaders feeding paranoia and fear in the masses. And the fact I innacurately remembered the manson/beatles correlation has nothing to do with the correctness of that fact.

Jim

[Bill the Cat]

I misremeberred the correlation and assumed your question had a different implication than it did.

Your last comment is pure naivete. History has shown over and over the consequences of leaders feeding paranoia and fear in the masses. And the fact I innacurately remembered the manson/beatles correlation has nothing to do with the correctness of that fact.

Jim

It's not naïve Jim. Your Trump induced paranoia is the only thing being fed.

[oxmixmudd]

It's not naïve Jim. Your Trump induced paranoia is the only thing being fed.

You cant escape the reality of what happens when leaders feed paranoia by invoking personal attack BTC. In fact, it simply shows you have no valid or objective means to back up your assertion. There are entire books written that discuss the use of fear and paranoia by leaders to secure their positions of power or to invoke genocide and other gross misapplications of power. Trumps use of that mechanism for his own purposes is irresponsible, and will tend to produce the sorts of responses seen in this shooter.

https://www.amazon.com/Paranoia-Luig.../dp/1138673668

Source: review of the above

"This analysis of the collective paranoia that results in horrendous conflicts between societies and between groups within societies, provides a ‘different angle of vision’ (to use Robert K. Merton’s useful sociological perspective) for the social scientist trying to make sense of unrest and war in the world. Zoja’s sweep of history shows how leaders have capitalized on tendencies toward paranoia to mobilize against targeted groups throughout history and well into our own time. This is an intellectual tour de force that brings together both psychological, cultural and sociological factors that have resulted in aggression against subgroups within societies and aggression against societies close to or far from home. It expands our outlook that limits analysis to economic, geographic, or political factors." - Cynthia Epstein, Emeritus Distinguished Professor of Sociology, Graduate Center of the City University of New York, USA

"A great book, blazing new trails...A new look at the phenomenon of paranoia - this time as a motive for action, personal as well as collective; a factor capable of determining the course of biographies but also of history. In our times of the world falling out of join, ambient fears seeking in vain the place to cast their anchors, and so the collective and personal paranoia exuberant and in full swing, Zoja's study acquires exceptional topicality. A truly eye-opening study!" - Zygmunt Bauman, Professor Emeritus of Sociology, University of Leeds, UK

"Lemkin, a Polish jurist, coined the word ‘genocide’ around 1943. Some 70 years afterwards, Zoja is engaging with the demanding endeavour of continuing the work of Lemkin in exploring the real meaning of the genocidal process and the genocidal mind. Paranoia is one of the outcomes of this endeavour, and now represents a masterpiece for the world of genocide experts. With rigorous historical analysis, this book presents the effect of ‘paranoia’ on masses and how paranoia has been wielded by different ideologies to create a "just war" doctrine." -Enzo Maria Le Fevre Cervini, vice-chair, Budapest Centre for the International Prevention of Genocide and Mass Atrocities

© Copyright Original Source

Jim

[Bill the Cat]

You cant escape the reality of what happens when leaders feed paranoia by invoking personal attack BTC.

Unless you can show a single instance where Trump specifically encourages someone to murder Mexicans, then you have absolutely nothing except your distorted lenses and TrumpOCD filtering your own paranoia.

In fact, it simply shoes you have no valid or objective means to back up your assertion. There are entire chapters in world history books written that discuss the use of fear and paranoia by leaders to secure their positions of power

Jim

And you are making a baseless assumption that Trump is using paranoia using nothing more than your proven lack of objectivity.

[oxmixmudd]

Unless you can show a single instance where Trump specifically encourages someone to murder Mexicans, then you have absolutely nothing except your distorted lenses and TrumpOCD filtering your own paranoia.

No, Trump does not have to tell a person to go kill a mexican to be using paranoia in his rhetoric against immigrants or for that rhetoric to motivate someone already on edge over the issue to go on a shooting spree. That is so absurd a statement it really doesn't even need to be pointed out, but hey, you said it, so I'm pointing out how absurd it is.

And you are making a baseless assumption that Trump is using paranoia using nothing more than your proven lack of objectivity.

No, this is just simple, objective fact. Trump IS using paranoia to motivate his base. He did it this weekend retweeting the Clinton Conspiracy nonsense in the Epstein suicide. He's done it in the past, including the conspiracy theory Obama was not actually a US citizen. It is one of Trump's defining characteristics. He uses fear and paranoia to motivate the people around him day in and day out. And he uses it constantly at his rallies. From "Fake news" to the "deep state" to the "Invasion from the south", it is all right there, fully documented, available to all to see.


Jim

[lilpixieofterror]

You cant escape the reality of what happens when leaders feed paranoia by invoking personal attack BTC. In fact, it simply shows you have no valid or objective means to back up your assertion. There are entire books written that discuss the use of fear and paranoia by leaders to secure their positions of power or to invoke genocide and other gross misapplications of power. Trumps use of that mechanism for his own purposes is irresponsible, and will tend to produce the sorts of responses seen in this shooter.

https://www.amazon.com/Paranoia-Luig.../dp/1138673668

Source: review of the above

"This analysis of the collective paranoia that results in horrendous conflicts between societies and between groups within societies, provides a ‘different angle of vision’ (to use Robert K. Merton’s useful sociological perspective) for the social scientist trying to make sense of unrest and war in the world. Zoja’s sweep of history shows how leaders have capitalized on tendencies toward paranoia to mobilize against targeted groups throughout history and well into our own time. This is an intellectual tour de force that brings together both psychological, cultural and sociological factors that have resulted in aggression against subgroups within societies and aggression against societies close to or far from home. It expands our outlook that limits analysis to economic, geographic, or political factors." - Cynthia Epstein, Emeritus Distinguished Professor of Sociology, Graduate Center of the City University of New York, USA

"A great book, blazing new trails...A new look at the phenomenon of paranoia - this time as a motive for action, personal as well as collective; a factor capable of determining the course of biographies but also of history. In our times of the world falling out of join, ambient fears seeking in vain the place to cast their anchors, and so the collective and personal paranoia exuberant and in full swing, Zoja's study acquires exceptional topicality. A truly eye-opening study!" - Zygmunt Bauman, Professor Emeritus of Sociology, University of Leeds, UK

"Lemkin, a Polish jurist, coined the word ‘genocide’ around 1943. Some 70 years afterwards, Zoja is engaging with the demanding endeavour of continuing the work of Lemkin in exploring the real meaning of the genocidal process and the genocidal mind. Paranoia is one of the outcomes of this endeavour, and now represents a masterpiece for the world of genocide experts. With rigorous historical analysis, this book presents the effect of ‘paranoia’ on masses and how paranoia has been wielded by different ideologies to create a "just war" doctrine." -Enzo Maria Le Fevre Cervini, vice-chair, Budapest Centre for the International Prevention of Genocide and Mass Atrocities

© Copyright Original Source

Jim

By that logic the popular Avengers films inspired the shooting since both his goals and the goals of the main villain, was to reduce the population via extermination.

[lilpixieofterror]

No, this is just simple, objective fact. Trump IS using paranoia to motivate his base. He did it this weekend retweeting the Clinton Conspiracy nonsense in the Epstein suicide. He's done it in the past, including the conspiracy theory Obama was not actually a US citizen. It is one of Trump's defining characteristics. He uses fear and paranoia to motivate the people around him day in and day out. And he uses it constantly at his rallies. From "Fake news" to the "deep state" to the "Invasion from the south", it is all right there, fully documented, available to all to see.


Jim

And yet here you are, using fear and paranoia. For your logic to hold out, we’d have to assume Disney is also responsible.

[oxmixmudd]

By that logic the popular Avengers films inspired the shooting since both his goals and the goals of the main villain, was to reduce the population via extermination.

No - that would not be a logical conclusion at all.

Jim

[oxmixmudd]

And yet here you are, using fear and paranoia. For your logic to hold out, we’d have to assume Disney is also responsible.

Denial of historical fact is not an argument. Trump IS using paranoia and fear as it relates to immigration. Fear and paranoia as regards immigrants was the shooter's motivation. Trump's use of that fear has consequences. This shooting was one of them. But by no means has it been, is it, or will it be the only consequence.

It is irresponsible and a dereliction of duty for any leader in this country to use paranoia and irrational fear, especially as Trump is using them, as part of their strategy to secure or retain power. This is a simple fact and it applies to anyone doing it. Though Trump's abuse of that element has the most reach, and is obscene in its scope (he has almost no regard for how dangerous it is to use that method to motivate people)

Jim

[lilpixieofterror]

No - that would not be a logical conclusion at all.

Jim

Why not? The entire plan of the major villain, Thanos, was there wasn’t enough resources to sustain the population, so half of the life in the universe had to be exterminated. The El Paso shooter cited a similar argument in his manifesto. Therefore, Marvel and Disney are responsible. It’s your logic, I’m just showing you how crazy it is.

[lilpixieofterror]

Denial of historical fact is not an argument. Trump IS using paranoia and fear as it relates to immigration. Fear and paranoia as regards immigrants was the shooter's motivation. Trump's use of that fear has consequences. This shooting was one of them. But by no means has it been, is it, or will it be the only consequence.

It is irresponsible and a dereliction of duty for any leader in this country to use paranoia and irrational fear, especially as Trump is using them, as part of their strategy to secure or retain power. This is a simple fact and it applies to anyone doing it. Though Trump's abuse of that element has the most reach, and is obscene in its scope (he has almost no regard for how dangerous it is to use that method to motivate people)

Jim

As I pointed out, the entire Avengers movie saga was built upon the main villain wanting to kill half of all life. What did the El Paso shooter say was among his motivations? Plenty of people have shown admiration for Thanos’ plan because crazy people will find all sorts of motivations to carry out their insane plans.

[One Bad Pig]

Unless you can show a single instance where Trump specifically encourages someone to murder Mexicans, then you have absolutely nothing except your distorted lenses and TrumpOCD filtering your own paranoia.



And you are making a baseless assumption that Trump is using paranoia using nothing more than your proven lack of objectivity.

It's not worth the hassle, Bill. It's only going to raise your blood pressure and ensure your place on the list of those 'persecuting' him here.