Page 3 of 3 FirstFirst 123
Results 21 to 23 of 23

Thread: Book Plunge: Pulling Back The Green Curtain

  1. #21
    tWebber Christianbookworm's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    Northern Hemisphere
    Faith
    Christian
    Gender
    Female
    Posts
    9,443
    Amen (Given)
    5602
    Amen (Received)
    1805
    I think fundy atheists want God to judge everyone that they think is evil, but forgive everyone at their level or above. Except that Jesus could point out that they are worse than Him, so, by their standard, He can still judge them!
    If it weren't for the Resurrection of Jesus, we'd all be in DEEP TROUBLE!

  2. #22
    Department Head Apologiaphoenix's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    Corryton
    Faith
    Trinitarian
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    6,319
    Amen (Given)
    295
    Amen (Received)
    2996
    Part 11.

    Link

    ----

    As we get closer to the end, what more will we find? Letís plunge into the Deeper Waters and find out.

    We start out with the 1 Cor. 14 passage about women being silent in church. Obviously, Hall thinks his audience hasnít read the Bible and doesnít know whatís in it. Any discussion on how some scholars think this is a textual variant not original to Paul? Nope. Any look at any commentaries and meanings of this passage? Nope. This is the kind of low content we expect from Hall. Those curious are recommended to check my interview with Lynn Cohick on this.

    He refers to wars between Arabs and Christians and uses Nigeria as an example with 20,000 being killed in Godís name since 1990. Nothing is said about the regimes of Mao, Stalin, or Pol-Pot of course who have done far more, but hey, details. Who needs them?

    He asks pastors to stop using Hosea 11:1 in Matthew ďOut of Egypt, I called my SonĒ as a prophecy of Jesus. As per the first entry of today, nothing is said about the ways that texts were interpreted in the times of the apostles. Nothing is said about pesher or midrash. In Matthewís day, this would have been acceptable. Just as in the past, YHWH called His son Israel out of Egypt, so He does with Jesus as Jesus relives the experiences of Israel.

    As if predicting my reply to the 20,000 killed above, he asks how many are killed in the name of atheism. Sadly, he goes the usual route that those were politically motivated and werenít done in the name of atheism. Yes. It was just a coincidence that they were killing Christians and dynamiting churches. They get a free pass since it wasnít done in the name of atheism.

    He also says atheism is just the lack of a belief. This doesnít fly at all. If thatís the case, Hall is just giving us his personal psychology and not a worldview. Second, supposing God does exist. In that case, theism and atheism could be true in that theism which says God exists would be true and what is supposed to be its negative since a in front of theism negates it would also be true as atheists who hold to atheism could still exist. Also, I doubt Hall would accept it if I just said ďOh. I hold to theism as I have God belief, but that doesnít mean Iím claiming anything about reality.Ē

    I also want to suggest what two atheist philosophers say should be taken seriously.

    ErnestNagelOnAtheism.jpg

    PaulEdwardsOnAtheism.jpg

    He then says that the same God who said do not kill. The references are the Ten Commandments and Exodus 32:27. Had Hall done a couple of minutes of research on a site like Blue Letter Bible and looked up the words, he would have known they were different words in Hebrew. Alas, thatís not doable for Hall. We dare not research lest we find out we are wrong and we canít welcome contrary thought.

    He makes statements about the Sea of Galilee such as itís not really a sea and the storms canít get life threatening. I have seen David Fitzgerald make such a claim before and thankfully, I asked my friend Greg Monette who has been to Israel many times about it.

    Ē The lake is huge. If you google it you will find the dimensions. Itís also in a valley. If youíve ever been to Galilee the mountains surround it and the wind rushes down. Only someone who hasnít been to Galilee region would say such a thing. Iíve been on the lake with waves that were at least 3-4 feet high. That was in a big boat. Now make that an ancient fishing boat similar to the one at the Yigal Allon Nof Ginosar Boat Museum where they found the first century fishing boat and it would be very difficult to navigate that boat in the water with saves even 3 feet high and wind blowing hard. There are dozens of windsurfers surfing on Galilee every day in the summertime because the wind is so strong. ď

    Hall also says you can believe someone walked on water or you can grow up. Yes. Because obviously anyone who believes in miracles just is still stunted in their growth. Weíll see what happens if the big bad adult Hall ever gets the guts to go through works like Craig Keenerís or Candy Gunther Brownís.

    He claims Dionysus was born of a virgin on December 25th, turned water into wine, made a triumphant entry on a donkey, and was killed, resurrected, and bodily ascended into heaven. He has citations, but no page numbers, but having seen many such claims before, I really donít take them seriously and I have no wish to scour through a whole book looking for them. The only one I think is accurate is that he turned water into wine, fitting for the god of wine.

    He says the Didache didnít make it in the Bible because of the embarrassing fact it doesnít mention Jesus or the resurrection. Hmmm. That does sound embarrassing. What would be even more embarrassing is if one was to, oh, I donít know, go to a website and look up the Didache and do a search for Jesus.

    Chapter 9. The Eucharist. Now concerning the Eucharist, give thanks this way. First, concerning the cup:

    We thank thee, our Father, for the holy vine of David Thy servant, which You madest known to us through Jesus Thy Servant; to Thee be the glory for ever..

    And concerning the broken bread:

    We thank Thee, our Father, for the life and knowledge which You madest known to us through Jesus Thy Servant; to Thee be the glory for ever. Even as this broken bread was scattered over the hills, and was gathered together and became one, so let Thy Church be gathered together from the ends of the earth into Thy kingdom; for Thine is the glory and the power through Jesus Christ for ever..

    But let no one eat or drink of your Eucharist, unless they have been baptized into the name of the Lord; for concerning this also the Lord has said, ďGive not that which is holy to the dogs.Ē

    Chapter 10. Prayer after Communion. But after you are filled, give thanks this way:

    We thank Thee, holy Father, for Thy holy name which You didst cause to tabernacle in our hearts, and for the knowledge and faith and immortality, which You modest known to us through Jesus Thy Servant; to Thee be the glory for ever. Thou, Master almighty, didst create all things for Thy nameís sake; You gavest food and drink to men for enjoyment, that they might give thanks to Thee; but to us You didst freely give spiritual food and drink and life eternal through Thy Servant. Before all things we thank Thee that You are mighty; to Thee be the glory for ever. Remember, Lord, Thy Church, to deliver it from all evil and to make it perfect in Thy love, and gather it from the four winds, sanctified for Thy kingdom which Thou have prepared for it; for Thine is the power and the glory for ever. Let grace come, and let this world pass away. Hosanna to the God (Son) of David! If any one is holy, let him come; if any one is not so, let him repent. Maranatha. Amen.

    Or resurrection, such as at the end of the last chapter.

    And third, the resurrection of the dead ó yet not of all, but as it is said: ďThe Lord shall come and all His saints with Him.Ē Then shall the world see the Lord coming upon the clouds of heaven.

    Obviously, Hall did no fact-checking whatsoever. If we cannot trust him on claims we can verify easily, why should we trust him on ones we cannot, such as ones about Dionysus?

    He quotes 1 Corinthians 1:19 saying I will destroy human wisdom and discard their most brilliant ideas. He doesnít even realize Paul is being sarcastic at this point talking about the sophists of his time and how they didnít really have wisdom. Hall does no research whatsoever.

    He says Judas was a good guy and not a traitor. Why? The Gospel of Judas. Never doubt the ability of skeptics to question the closest testimonies we have to the source but give whole-hearted endorsement to the ones that come over a century later.

    He says a prophet once asked another to cut him down. The second prophet refused and was killed by a lion for it. Had Hall actually read the text, he would have known the first prophet did not ask to be killed. He asked to be struck.

    He points to Joshua 11:6 about hamstringing horses which he describes as torture. This would actually be done to prevent their enemies from using them and thus stopping the loss of more human life. Again, Hall doesnít bother to look at why something was done. He just says ďI donít like itĒ and that shows itís wrong.

    Next time, I hope to go through the remaining 66 *cough* facts *cough*.

    In Christ,
    Nick Peters

  3. #23
    Department Head Apologiaphoenix's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    Corryton
    Faith
    Trinitarian
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    6,319
    Amen (Given)
    295
    Amen (Received)
    2996
    Final part.

    Link

    -----

    As we come to an end, is there anything new? Letís plunge into the Deeper Waters and find out.

    Weíll try to decide which of the last 66 ďfactsĒ I think are relevant today. He says that if you rape a female slave, you owe the temple a ram and you will be forgiven. The slave will receive a severe beating and whipping for no reason. His reference is Lev. 19:20-21.

    Letís see what the passage says.

    20 ď ĎIf a man sleeps with a female slave who is promised to another man but who has not been ransomed or given her freedom, there must be due punishment. Yet they are not to be put to death, because she had not been freed. 21 The man, however, must bring a ram to the entrance to the tent of meeting for a guilt offering to the LORD. 22 With the ram of the guilt offering the priest is to make atonement for him before the LORD for the sin he has committed, and his sin will be forgiven.

    First off, nothing is mentioned about rape. Could it include rape? Perhaps, but it just says sleep. Nothing is said about if this is consensual or not. Since it says they are not to be put to death, I am leaning towards consensual. However, there is absolutely nothing here about beating or whipping. I have no idea where Hall got this unless he just didnít read the text.

    Hall then says this in another fact.

    If there was a god and it wrote a book, I would expect it to be perfect in every way. Clearly written. Accessible to everyone. Easily understandable. Promoting peace and love. If there were no god, I would expect humans to create lots of books then say they were written by God. I would expect the books to be full of internal contradictions. And the books would not agree with each other at all. They would contain a haphazard collection of personal stories, letters, vague parables and admonitions. The stories and instructions would be open to multiple conflicting interpretations. They would contain good moral teachings, but they would also have passages of violence, intolerance and hatred. Which scenario lines up with reality?
    This sounds convincing to a lot of people, but what evidence does Hall give that this should be so. Is God supposed to control culture and language to such a degree that nothing ever changes whatsoever? Is every word supposed to be magically clear to every culture and the context just magically beamed into our heads? Would this even work anyway? Would some people still just say ďFine, but I donít care. I would rather have my wealth and sexual pleasures.Ē? Hall lives in a world where he doesnít believe and wants to blame God for Hallís own refusal to do his research and homework. Why is that atheists always tell us that the wonder of science is we get a question and say ďLetís find out!Ē but when it comes to religion, God is supposed to just give us all the answers upfront?

    He says Moses once kidnapped 32,000 virgins and points to Numbers 31. Yes. These were people who had gone out of their way to visit Israel and entice them to break their covenant with YHWH by even their own women selling themselves into prostitution. Israel was not bothering these people and was not a threat to them. Why were the virgins spared? Not for rape purposes, as anyone who participated in battle had to be outside of the camp for a time for purification, but because the virgins were not involved. These girls were likely adopted into Israelite culture then. Itís amazing. When God kills everyone, atheists complain. When He spares anyone, atheists still complain.

    He says that for 700 years, no one who was doing exquisite torture doubted their actions were not justified by the Bible. Hall doesnít tell us when these 700 years were. Without that, I have nothing to go by really.

    He says that if God is outside of space and time, then He cannot interact with us because He is paralyzed. He says movement in space requires time and motion is the change of the position of an object with respect to time. Amazing that no philosopher has ever thought to address this. The problem is that Hall has given no real reason to believe this. If a being created space and time, why think He is bound by them. Hall gives no evidence about non-material beings. How did He come across this data anyway that he is presenting?

    He says the number of the beast is 616. Is this supposed to be a new fact? I actually agree with him. What of it?

    He has the typical knock knock joke with Jesus as the door saying He wants to save you. From what? From what Heíll do if you donít let Him in. This argument assumes that mankind is innocent and has no need of a savior whatsoever. Hall gives no reason to think that and most of us by personal experience know we have done things wrong. If Hall thinks himself an exception, I have even more reason to be concerned about him.

    He also has something about the command in Deuteronomy to stone children. Of course, Hall never does bother to study a passage. If itís supposed to be news to us, itís not. I have already written about it here.

    He says when judgment day comes, stars will fall out of the sky and land on the Earth and then mockingly says this God-breathed book doesnít even know what stars are. Well, this internet atheist who thinks he knows enough to write a book doesnít even know what apocalyptic language is and doesnít realize that political events are spoken of in cosmic terms. It is by genre not literal. Be patient with Jimmy. He needs to avoid that contrary thought so he wonít experience cognitive dissonance.

    With fact 635, he does mention several problems in atheistic communities such as Madalyn Murray OíHair being murdered by a former employee. Amusingly, he also mentions Richard Carrier being banned from a number of atheist conventions. Hey. 665 facts against the other side. Maybe Hall is feeling generous.

    He goes to adherents.com and says there are 4,200 religions on Earth. Color me skeptical, but okay. He then says Christianity has 41,000 denominations. This isnít the result of an omnipotent deity, but of a group of people afraid of the unknown and death. I have no idea how he got to the last point, but the point about denominations is just wrong. Even Catholic apologists are now pointing this one out.

    He cites the end of Matthew 2 saying Jesus will be called a Nazarene which is embarrassing since the Old Testament never mentions Nazareth. Indeed, it doesnít. Hall doesnít notice that this is the one place Matthew mentions a fulfillment and uses the plural. I think this is to mean the prophets said Jesus would be a shameful figure. There could also be a pun here as the word for Nazarene can be related to a branch which would mean Jesus is the Messiah, the branch of David.

    He says no serious Bible scholar believes that Revelation is future. Well, I would say several likely do. I think they are wrong, but that is beside the point. He also says it was written to give people hope that Jesus would come back and save them from the Romans. Thatís not referred to either in the book, although justice does come on Rome and Jerusalem as well. I really wonder how Hall reads Revelation.

    Actually, Iím wondering at this point if he reads anything.

    He says over 50 million people have been murdered by Catholicism, yet of the instances he gives, they only number 1,480,000. Thatís still too many, and I even question those reports, but that is a far cry from 50 million. Itís likely heís repeating bogus atheist history that is not taken seriously anymore by historians.

    He says Jesus didnít think of Himself as God because he asked ďWhy do you call me good? No one is good but God alone.Ē Swing and a miss again. Jesus is not receiving a compliment directly, something that would bind him in that culture to the giver of the compliment, but checking the devotion of the questioner. ďYou say I am good? If you think that, then you are treating me as if I am God. Are you ready for that?Ē There was no denial of this. He is saying either He is good and He is God or He is not good in which why listen to Him?

    Itís worth noting He goes on in that passage to say that the disciples will sit on twelve thrones judging the twelve tribes. This likely goes back to Jesus since it says twelve and we all know Judas apostasized. Simple question. Where is Jesus going to sit? Jesus could only be sitting on the throne of the Son of Man over the twelve apostles, quite a high view of Himself there.

    He says that there are 16 disciples named when there are supposed to be twelve. He says that people did have more than one name, but if they didnít get the names right, what else did they get wrong? But if someone has more than one name, they did get the names right. It would be acceptable to use either one of them.

    Nothing more goes on in this book. In closing, Hall is just someone who really should give up writing about Christianity. He is woefully uninformed. That being said, I hope he doesnít. He will keep making his fellow atheists more and more uninformed and doing more damage to atheism. Thank God that Jim Hall is writing books. Heís doing more damage to the atheist community than many of my fellow apologists are.

    In Christ,
    Nick Peters

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •