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  1. #511
    Evolution is God's ID rogue06's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cow Poke View Post
    It is absolutely sickening - that is NOT what unions were for!
    Unfortunately, as long as you pay your dues they'll pretty much support you regardless of what you did.

    I'm always still in trouble again

    "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" -- starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)

  2. #512
    See, the Thing is... Cow Poke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rogue06 View Post
    Unfortunately, as long as you pay your dues they'll pretty much support you regardless of what you did.
    And, to me, the absolute worst abuse of this is in the schools -- the National Education Association doesn't give a rat's hineybo about the students - they're all about protecting bad teachers.
    Every problem is the result of a previous solution.

  3. #513
    Professor KingsGambit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cow Poke View Post
    It is absolutely sickening - that is NOT what unions were for!
    By the end, I just started going to management myself if I had a problem with anything. Usually, they would fully play into the game and intentionally break the collective bargaining terms, daring the union to call them on it, but since I was a hard worker and got along fine with everybody (except the union boss), I found I had better results dealing with them myself and could generally come to an agreement.

    I'm fully aware not every manager out there is actually willing to talk to employees, though.

    (Incidentally, the union steward was the guy I mentioned in the other thread who told me that if society fell apart, he would come after "liberals like you" because he knew they wouldn't have guns. Scary stuff.)
    "Technology has, in an enhanced way, given mockers a platform to set society on fire with polarizing speech. Internet culture privileges those whose insults are click bait." - Timothy Keller

  4. Amen DesertBerean amen'd this post.
  5. #514
    See, the Thing is... Cow Poke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KingsGambit View Post
    By the end, I just started going to management myself if I had a problem with anything. Usually, they would fully play into the game and intentionally break the collective bargaining terms, daring the union to call them on it, but since I was a hard worker and got along fine with everybody (except the union boss), I found I had better results dealing with them myself and could generally come to an agreement.

    I'm fully aware not every manager out there is actually willing to talk to employees, though.

    (Incidentally, the union steward was the guy I mentioned in the other thread who told me that if society fell apart, he would come after "liberals like you" because he knew they wouldn't have guns. Scary stuff.)
    Especially when you think about the origin of the term "going postal".
    Every problem is the result of a previous solution.

  6. Amen Teallaura amen'd this post.
  7. #515
    tWebber Teallaura's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cow Poke View Post
    But those PESKY perforations! Just need to make sure they're not all lined up together.
    Perforated all over and it would be very difficult to make a rope out of it.

  8. #516
    Evolution is God's ID rogue06's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teallaura View Post
    Perforated all over and it would be very difficult to make a rope out of it.
    Although...

    I'm always still in trouble again

    "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" -- starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)

  9. #517
    tWebber Teallaura's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rogue06 View Post
    Difficult is not impossible...

    But if it's really perforated all over, even making it into strands will be difficult as all get out. I'd have a lot of trouble - and I've got friends who spin who would probably throw a fit before even attempting it.

    Mind you, a restless sleeper is going to turn it into confetti so it wouldn't be a great sheet...

    Last edited by Teallaura; 08-19-2019 at 05:02 PM.

  10. #518
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teallaura View Post
    Doesn't matter - if you are under suspicion or investigation SHUT UP and GET A LAWYER.

    The cops are NOT your friends - and they mean that bit about ANYTHING you say being used against you. No matter how innocent you are - shut up and lawyer up.

    Even more so if you're guilty.

    That's not assuming anything bad - it's just how the system works.

    FYI: Manafort wouldn't have been convicted if he'd talked to counsel before the FBI interview.
    I can't agree with this. It's never terrible advice to talk to a lawyer. But talking can to the police help you or someone else out, especially if you haven't done anything wrong. There are times when people talk and don't really give me much, but I have enough to charge them anyways. Other times, they talk and tell me their side of the story -- and I actually believe the story and decide not to charge them. Or maybe someone's made up an allegation and the suspect can provide an albi, but doesn't even know enough about the allegation (because they haven't talked to me) to know they can help themselves easily.

    I tell people all the time: if you don't want to talk to me, then that's fine. But that means I'll make a decision about whether not to arrest you without hearing your side of the story. Once I've charged you you're paying a ton of money to a lawyer and have to deal with court, etc...when you possibly could have talked to me and avoided the charges. The case just doesn't magically go away because you decide not to talk to me.

    Heck, last summer I had a victim file a report that I thought was BS. The suspect showed up while I was recovering "stolen" property. When I introduced myself and asked to talk to him, he lost his mind and screamed that he...ummm.....had nothing to say.... but she was lying. A brief conversation would have allowed me to understand why she was making up stuff against him, but he hates the cops so much he couldn't bring himself to talk to me and help himself out. If, however, he'd have explained to me how and why she was full of crap...I might have even been able to charge her with filing a false report.

    Edit: I have had times when the person consults an attorney first and then comes (alone) to talk to me. Other times I've had WTINESSES be so paranoid they blew a years worth of savings to talk to a lawyer. The law office first convinced him he needed legal advice, then I had two phone calls with them and they sent him in anyways -- totally cooperative. I got what I needed, the lawyer got paid, and the only one who lost out was the paranoid guy who paid for a lawyer he didn't need with money he didn't have.
    Last edited by myth; 08-19-2019 at 05:50 PM.
    "We see unmistakably the sort of universe in which we have all along been living, and must come to terms with it. If we had foolish un-Christian hopes about human culture, they are now shattered. If we thought we were building up a heaven on earth, if we looked for something that would turn the present world from a place of pilgrimage into a permanent city satisfying the soul of man, we are disillusioned, and not a moment too soon." - C.S. Lewis, The Weight of Glory

  11. #519
    tWebber Teallaura's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by myth View Post
    I can't agree with this. It's never terrible advice to talk to a lawyer. But talking can to the police help you or someone else out, especially if you haven't done anything wrong. There are times when people talk and don't really give me much, but I have enough to charge them anyways. Other times, they talk and tell me their side of the story -- and I actually believe the story and decide not to charge them. Or maybe someone's made up an allegation and the suspect can provide an albi, but doesn't even know enough about the allegation (because they haven't talked to me) to know they can help themselves easily.

    I tell people all the time: if you don't want to talk to me, then that's fine. But that means I'll make a decision about whether not to arrest you without hearing your side of the story. Once I've charged you you're paying a ton of money to a lawyer and have to deal with court, etc...when you possibly could have talked to me and avoided the charges. The case just doesn't magically go away because you decide not to talk to me.

    Heck, last summer I had a victim file a report that I thought was BS. The suspect showed up while I was recovering "stolen" property. When I introduced myself and asked to talk to him, he lost his mind and screamed that he...ummm.....had nothing to say.... but she was lying. A brief conversation would have allowed me to understand why she was making up stuff against him, but he hates the cops so much he couldn't bring himself to talk to me and help himself out. If, however, he'd have explained to me how and why she was full of crap...I might have even been able to charge her with filing a false report.
    The problem is that it's too easy to say the wrong thing. Now, granted, this may not be necessary under some circumstances - but innocent people have run off at the mouth meaning to be helpful and managed instead to get themselves in worse trouble.

    That's always a possibility - even great interviewers have that one guy that they just can't interview. They don't gel and neither 'gets' what the other is after - hilarity ensues. I've had patients that I'd have sworn were lying - or not - only to have a new interviewer get much better results. One patient was running me around and I was getting nowhere hunting a non-existent 'rapist' - when someone else talked to her she admitted she didn't want me thinking badly of her and that there was no rape. We got the guy in that day.

    With a DIS, the worst that can happen is we don't get everyone treated and we get to do the whole thing again in a few months. With a cop, there's the real possibility of decades in prison (depending on the crime, obviously). Sure, sometimes that means causing yourself more trouble - but it can also spare someone innocent from being convicted by their own stupid words.

  12. #520
    See, the Thing is... Cow Poke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by myth View Post
    I can't agree with this. It's never terrible advice to talk to a lawyer. But talking can to the police help you or someone else out, especially if you haven't done anything wrong. There are times when people talk and don't really give me much, but I have enough to charge them anyways. Other times, they talk and tell me their side of the story -- and I actually believe the story and decide not to charge them. Or maybe someone's made up an allegation and the suspect can provide an albi, but doesn't even know enough about the allegation (because they haven't talked to me) to know they can help themselves easily.

    I tell people all the time: if you don't want to talk to me, then that's fine. But that means I'll make a decision about whether not to arrest you without hearing your side of the story. Once I've charged you you're paying a ton of money to a lawyer and have to deal with court, etc...when you possibly could have talked to me and avoided the charges. The case just doesn't magically go away because you decide not to talk to me.

    Heck, last summer I had a victim file a report that I thought was BS. The suspect showed up while I was recovering "stolen" property. When I introduced myself and asked to talk to him, he lost his mind and screamed that he...ummm.....had nothing to say.... but she was lying. A brief conversation would have allowed me to understand why she was making up stuff against him, but he hates the cops so much he couldn't bring himself to talk to me and help himself out. If, however, he'd have explained to me how and why she was full of crap...I might have even been able to charge her with filing a false report.

    Edit: I have had times when the person consults an attorney first and then comes (alone) to talk to me. Other times I've had WTINESSES be so paranoid they blew a years worth of savings to talk to a lawyer. The law office first convinced him he needed legal advice, then I had two phone calls with them and they sent him in anyways -- totally cooperative. I got what I needed, the lawyer got paid, and the only one who lost out was the paranoid guy who paid for a lawyer he didn't need with money he didn't have.
    Yeah, there really needs to be discretion - if talking to the police helps somebody, especially in the immediate, I see no problem with that. In fact, we have a moral responsibility.

    My example was where you'd have to use a firearm in self-defense, but my concern in NOT talking to the police is simply because - even though you can be cleared criminally - there is nothing keeping the family of the deceased (or wounded) to sue you civilly. And where will they get their information? From police reports and witness statements.
    Every problem is the result of a previous solution.

  13. Amen Teallaura amen'd this post.

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