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Epstein Found Dead In Cell...

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  • Originally posted by myth View Post
    I don't have any more facts about the incident than you do.

    I do, however, have experience in analyzing the data available and making decisions based on that information. I've investigated hangings, other suicides, and homicides before. I have advanced certifications in the subject matter, thousands of hours of continuing ed training within the field, and a degree in the subject matter at hand. I've spent time photographing neck injuries on suicides, stood over bodies while medical examiners conducted autopsies and discussed the injuries and cause of death, pulled and reviewed more hours of security camera video than I care to remember, consulted with digital forensic experts on multiple occasions, and processed plenty of crimes scenes. I've investigated (and charged) crimes where politicians and organizations tried to obstruct the case or influence the outcome of the process.

    So I have a pretty good handle on how things happen in the world, since I spend all my time I work immersed in these issues. But hey, what do I know? You're free to speculate and be fascinated all you want, I'm just pointing out that you appear to be way out in left field here (based on the information that I've seen so far).

    If you think even credible news sources don't get the facts wrong from time to time, then think again. I pay considerable attention to the news -- because like you said, it's the only source of information I have. But you have to take that all with a grain of salt. Major news outlets misrepresent the truth, too. It's their job to capture your interest and sell that attention to advertisers.

    We can speculate all we want, but we'll never see the case file. And without seeing the actual information...we're just guessing the best we can. I'm just trying to make sure our assumptions here are grounded. Have a good night.
    Fair enough. But do have any experience dealing with a high profile criminal like Epstein who apparently had a criminal network of other wealthy and powerful folks involved in his criminal conspiracy? See this is what bothers me. You guys treat this like it was just another day in prison life with just another criminal and it wasn't. This is one reason I don't buy the guard story (the idea they just didn't care and were treating it like another mundane situation) or the "this happens all the time in prisons" argument you guys use to explain it away. It would be like having a famous mob boss locked up, then something weird happens to him with a series of unusual things surrounding it, and you arguing "well this stuff happens all the time in prisons." No it doesn't under the circumstances

    Comment


    • Originally posted by myth View Post
      I investigate suicides and homicides for a living. This doesn't necessarily mean what you're implying it does.

      "Hyoid fracture following strangulation or hanging is well
      documented [10,11]. In a suspected case of murder, a fractured hyoid
      is indicative of strangulation, albeit this is not taken into consideration
      when the victim is a child or an adolescent, where the hyoid components
      are still pliable as ossification is not perfectly completed [10]"

      and

      "They are the result of direct trauma or hyperextension of the neck. Several
      causing factors have been reported. These include motor vehicle
      accidents, gunshot wounds, induced vomiting, injuries from helmet
      straps, choke holds and trauma during athletic activities such as martial
      arts or basketball [6,8,9,14-20]."

      https://www.longdom.org/open-access/...8.1000e128.pdf

      And...study wherein 15% of hanging victims have hyoid bone fractures: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20973326

      I'd be very interested in other things. Type of ligature, impressions and angle of impressions on neck, knot location and type, where the ligature was anchored, anchor impressions created by the ligature...and if you wanna get really nutty: touch DNA on the ligature. And all that ignores that there's probably security camera footage allowing them to track and time the appearance of anyone entering the area of his cell. Plus most modern prisons have elecontric locks, so there's likely a digital log of the door openings that are date and time stamped. Gotta look at the whole picture, bro.
      I'm trying not to read anything into it.
      I think it's most likely that he did commit suicide, and that one of the most plausible explanations of how he was allowed to can be chalked up to under-staffing/incompetence.

      At the same time his death does raise a number of issues and it is amusing (in a dark way) watching the MSM vacillate between wanting to mock anyone on the right who sees a conspiracy, and there being enough questions to raise their own conspiracies.
      Be watchful, stand firm in the faith, act like men, be strong.
      1 Corinthians 16:13

      "...he [Doherty] is no historian and he is not even conversant with the historical discussions of the very matters he wants to pontificate on."
      -Ben Witherington III

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
        Shouldn't an autopsy be able to determine how the bones were broken, whether they were crushed through strangulation, or suddenly snapped? Or is that only on TV shows?
        An autopsy on a hanging is normally a straightforward procedure. But the forensic experts are hesitating. The autopsy on Jeffrey Epstein has raised questions after reportedly showing he sustained multiple breaks in his neck bones including the hyoid bone. The experts are saying this is more common in homicidal strangulation, rather than a death by hanging.
        “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by DesertBerean View Post
          I've seen the media go ape about things that I personally know they don't really know as facts or even what they're looking at. At worst, they twist facts or antagonize the situation. At best, the media will only state that it LOOKS LIKE something happened or is may be the case or...whuddever. Their goal is VIEWERSHIP OR READERSHIP....everything else is secondary.
          Like the Russian Collusion Delusion?
          Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
          But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
          Than a fool in the eyes of God


          From "Fools Gold" by Petra

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
            Like the Russian Collusion Delusion?
            B-but little jimmy assures us that's all True™ and we could see it all for ourselves if we just read Mueller's report.

            I'm always still in trouble again

            "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
            "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
            "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Raphael View Post
              I'm trying not to read anything into it.

              At the same time his death does raise a number of issues and it is amusing (in a dark way) watching the MSM vacillate between wanting to mock anyone on the right who sees a conspiracy, and there being enough questions to raise their own conspiracies.
              I think we need to distinguish between not buying the official line and confidently stating exactly who did it.
              "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
                An autopsy on a hanging is normally a straightforward procedure.
                Yeah, they just see the marks on the neck and say, "yup, it's a hanging".

                But the forensic experts are hesitating. The autopsy on Jeffrey Epstein has raised questions after reportedly showing he sustained multiple breaks in his neck bones including the hyoid bone. The experts are saying this is more common in homicidal strangulation, rather than a death by hanging.
                This will be another thing to add to the list that a future newly-elected president will ask his Attorney General:

                A) are there really aleins
                2) who really killed Kennedy
                C) how did Epstein really die
                The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
                  I think we need to distinguish between not buying the official line and confidently stating exactly who did it.
                  I agree with both!
                  The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                    Like the Russian Collusion Delusion?
                    That's a for really thing, you just wait!!!
                    The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by DesertBerean View Post
                      I've seen the media go ape about things that I personally know they don't really know as facts or even what they're looking at. At worst, they twist facts or antagonize the situation. At best, the media will only state that it LOOKS LIKE something happened or is may be the case or...whuddever. Their goal is VIEWERSHIP OR READERSHIP....everything else is secondary.
                      You mean like when that totally innocent student who got hassled by the cops with a homemade clock that just happened to look like a bomb, but totally wasn't intended to look like a bomb, or that teenager in the Trump hat who taunted an innocent Native American man who was minding his own business? Or when that famous actor was beaten up and doused with bleach by men who hollered "This is Trump country?" I read it on a bunch of news sites that that's exactly how those things played out.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Raphael View Post
                        I'm trying not to read anything into it.
                        I think it's most likely that he did commit suicide, and that one of the most plausible explanations of how he was allowed to can be chalked up to under-staffing/incompetence.

                        At the same time his death does raise a number of issues and it is amusing (in a dark way) watching the MSM vacillate between wanting to mock anyone on the right who sees a conspiracy, and there being enough questions to raise their own conspiracies.
                        I think the right course of action is to wait until all of the facts are in. The news media tends to have a very myopic view of these things in order to stir up controversy and sell papers (as it were). It's fine to speculate, but I think it's wise to hold off on language that suggests certainty until all of the details are present. We're not quite at that point yet.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Adrift View Post
                          Ihe news media tends to have a very myopic view of these things in order to stir up controversy and sell papers (as it were).
                          As far as the news business is concerned, being first is almost more important than being right.
                          Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                          But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                          Than a fool in the eyes of God


                          From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                          Comment


                          • We are full square back into the days of yellow journalism.

                            I'm always still in trouble again

                            "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                            "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                            "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Adrift View Post
                              ... in order to stir up controversy and sell papers (as it were)....
                              Yeah, how long before we have to say "in order to get clicks or collect paywall fees"?
                              The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by myth View Post
                                I investigate suicides and homicides for a living. This doesn't necessarily mean what you're implying it does.

                                "Hyoid fracture following strangulation or hanging is well
                                documented [10,11]. In a suspected case of murder, a fractured hyoid
                                is indicative of strangulation, albeit this is not taken into consideration
                                when the victim is a child or an adolescent, where the hyoid components
                                are still pliable as ossification is not perfectly completed [10]"

                                and

                                "They are the result of direct trauma or hyperextension of the neck. Several
                                causing factors have been reported. These include motor vehicle
                                accidents, gunshot wounds, induced vomiting, injuries from helmet
                                straps, choke holds and trauma during athletic activities such as martial
                                arts or basketball [6,8,9,14-20]."

                                https://www.longdom.org/open-access/...8.1000e128.pdf

                                And...study wherein 15% of hanging victims have hyoid bone fractures: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20973326

                                I'd be very interested in other things. Type of ligature, impressions and angle of impressions on neck, knot location and type, where the ligature was anchored, anchor impressions created by the ligature...and if you wanna get really nutty: touch DNA on the ligature. And all that ignores that there's probably security camera footage allowing them to track and time the appearance of anyone entering the area of his cell. Plus most modern prisons have elecontric locks, so there's likely a digital log of the door openings that are date and time stamped. Gotta look at the whole picture, bro.
                                Nonetheless, that in 85% of suicide by hanging cases there is no break of that bone is another piece of the mystery.

                                Comment

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