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Epstein Found Dead In Cell...

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  • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
    Tying a sheet around your neck and hanging yourself is pretty much the same as strangulation, isn't it?

    I know it's fun to joke around about Hillary and other conspiracy theories but does anyone really believe this guy didn't commit suicide?

    He was going to be put on trial for pedophilia in front of the world. He killed himself out of shame.
    It's probably the most likely explanation but I don't believe it at a high level of confidence.
    "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

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    • Originally posted by seanD View Post
      Thing is, due his apparent power and influence (though it's still inexplicable why Acosta gave him that sweet deal), he managed to get off with an extremely light sentence the first time he was arrested for basically the same thing. So, due to the lack of knowledge we have about the details of his conviction this time, there's no reason to think he wouldn't have gotten the same deal, or at least in his mind. However, if he was perhaps persuaded to do it...
      Naw, I think the national mood is WAY different now, and the furor over his previous "sweetheart deal" would have prevented him from a second one.
      The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
        Tying a sheet around your neck and hanging yourself is pretty much the same as strangulation, isn't it?
        ...
        I'm going to pretend to be one of Temperance Brennan's squinterns here...

        Because of its location, the hyoid bone is more likely to be fractured during manual strangulation, because either the thumbs (if strangled from the front) or the fingers or forearm (if strangled from behind) would exert direct pressure on it. An improvised noose would exert more uniform pressure around the whole neck.

        OTOH, sources (i.e. Emily Compagno on The Five, IIRC) report that relatively recent research has shown that in victims over age 45 or so, the bones are more brittle, and more ambiguous as to cause when broken.
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        • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
          Tying a sheet around your neck and hanging yourself is pretty much the same as strangulation, isn't it?

          I know it's fun to joke around about Hillary and other conspiracy theories but does anyone really believe this guy didn't commit suicide?

          He was going to be put on trial for pedophilia in front of the world. He killed himself out of shame.
          I expect he committed suicide. But remember, if someone is suicidal, you don't have to actually kill them; just get out of the way and let them do it themselves. What I'm not sure about is whether the fact he was able to kill himself--despite being under suicide watch, from my understanding--comes from simple gross incompetence or someone actually wanting him dead and thus opening the way for him.

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          • Originally posted by Terraceth View Post
            I expect he committed suicide. But remember, if someone is suicidal, you don't have to actually kill them; just get out of the way and let them do it themselves. What I'm not sure about is whether the fact he was able to kill himself--despite being under suicide watch, from my understanding--comes from simple gross incompetence or someone actually wanting him dead and thus opening the way for him.
            Reports say he was off suicide watch, but regardless, it seems the guards did all they could to ensure him ample opportunity to commit the deed.
            Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
            But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
            Than a fool in the eyes of God


            From "Fools Gold" by Petra

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            • A photo of the two prison guards on duty when Epstein committed suicide has recently been released:















              Sorry. Couldn't resist.





              Okay. Not that sorry and didn't try resisting very hard.

              I'm always still in trouble again

              "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
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              "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

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              • Originally posted by seanD View Post
                This was interesting...



                So not only will the judge likely throw out the immunity protection (if they haven't already done so), which will allow the criminal investigation to progress, but NDAs are nullified which will presumably help in the civil suits that are set to rain down for the victims.

                It's looking more and more to me that someone on top of the federal food chain with a lot of authority just had had enough and concluded this was the only option for justice moving forward. I do believe there are still a remnant of good people in the criminal justice system. That's my conspiratorial hypothesis (my what if) and I'm sticking to it unless I see evidence to the contrary.

                Apparently, as far as the criminal case, they'll now be going after Epstein's co-conspirators such as the group of women he used to recruit young girls, particularly his head recruiter Ghislaine Maxwell. All I got to say is, madame Maxwell better hire some serious personal security
                I don't think one has to 'throw out' an immunity deal after the protected party has died. After their death, there's no one to protect. Immunity simply prevents prosecutors from charging the protected party. You can't charge him if he's dead. Now, the sealed court records are a different issue. But some of those were already unsealed and the others are up for consideration to be unsealed.
                "If you believe, take the first step, it leads to Jesus Christ. If you don't believe, take the first step all the same, for you are bidden to take it. No one wants to know about your faith or unbelief, your orders are to perform the act of obedience on the spot. Then you will find yourself in the situation where faith becomes possible and where faith exists in the true sense of the word." - Dietrich Bonhoeffer, The Cost of Discipleship

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                • Originally posted by seanD View Post
                  Not only did the guards inexplicably not make their 30 minute round check that night, but apparently Epstein's cellmate was moved, leaving Epstein alone the night he died, contrary to the DoJ that was told he would not only be monitored every 30 minutes but that he would in fact have a cellmate.

                  I mean, give me a break. Sorry, but that goes beyond just negligence.


                  ETA: the guards have also gotten defense attorneys
                  It's not inexplicable. CP already hinted, but here: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/08/12/n...tein-barr.html

                  The whole prison is understaffed, and they're overworked. Sleeping on the job is not acceptable, but when you have people working crazy scheduels....people fall asleep. I also heard on a NY Times podcast that one of the employees were forced to come in on their day off, the other was on overtime. One wasn't even a correctional officer, but a different type of prison employee brought in to help plug the staffing gap.
                  "If you believe, take the first step, it leads to Jesus Christ. If you don't believe, take the first step all the same, for you are bidden to take it. No one wants to know about your faith or unbelief, your orders are to perform the act of obedience on the spot. Then you will find yourself in the situation where faith becomes possible and where faith exists in the true sense of the word." - Dietrich Bonhoeffer, The Cost of Discipleship

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                  • Originally posted by Raphael View Post
                    From the NZ Herald (a slightly leftish MSM. Publication)

                    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/new...ectid=12258905
                    Source: NZ Herald

                    Autopsy finds broken bones in Jeffrey Epstein's neck, deepening questions around his death
                    An autopsy found that financier Jeffrey Epstein sustained multiple breaks in his neck bones, according to two people familiar with the findings, deepening the mystery about the circumstances around his death.

                    Among the bones broken in Epstein's neck was the hyoid bone, which in men is near the Adam's apple. Such breaks might be self-inflicted but they are more common in victims of homicide by strangulation, the experts said.

                    The details are the first findings to emerge from the autopsy of Epstein, a convicted sex offender and multimillionaire in federal custody on charges of sex trafficking. He died early Saturday morning after guards found him hanging in his cell at the Metropolitan Correctional Center in Manhattan and he could not be revived.

                    © Copyright Original Source

                    I investigate suicides and homicides for a living. This doesn't necessarily mean what you're implying it does.

                    "Hyoid fracture following strangulation or hanging is well
                    documented [10,11]. In a suspected case of murder, a fractured hyoid
                    is indicative of strangulation, albeit this is not taken into consideration
                    when the victim is a child or an adolescent, where the hyoid components
                    are still pliable as ossification is not perfectly completed [10]"

                    and

                    "They are the result of direct trauma or hyperextension of the neck. Several
                    causing factors have been reported. These include motor vehicle
                    accidents, gunshot wounds, induced vomiting, injuries from helmet
                    straps, choke holds and trauma during athletic activities such as martial
                    arts or basketball [6,8,9,14-20]."

                    https://www.longdom.org/open-access/...8.1000e128.pdf

                    And...study wherein 15% of hanging victims have hyoid bone fractures: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20973326

                    I'd be very interested in other things. Type of ligature, impressions and angle of impressions on neck, knot location and type, where the ligature was anchored, anchor impressions created by the ligature...and if you wanna get really nutty: touch DNA on the ligature. And all that ignores that there's probably security camera footage allowing them to track and time the appearance of anyone entering the area of his cell. Plus most modern prisons have elecontric locks, so there's likely a digital log of the door openings that are date and time stamped. Gotta look at the whole picture, bro.
                    Last edited by myth; 08-15-2019, 07:18 PM.
                    "If you believe, take the first step, it leads to Jesus Christ. If you don't believe, take the first step all the same, for you are bidden to take it. No one wants to know about your faith or unbelief, your orders are to perform the act of obedience on the spot. Then you will find yourself in the situation where faith becomes possible and where faith exists in the true sense of the word." - Dietrich Bonhoeffer, The Cost of Discipleship

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                    • Originally posted by myth View Post
                      I don't think one has to 'throw out' an immunity deal after the protected party has died. After their death, there's no one to protect. Immunity simply prevents prosecutors from charging the protected party. You can't charge him if he's dead. Now, the sealed court records are a different issue. But some of those were already unsealed and the others are up for consideration to be unsealed.
                      Admittedly I don't know enough about the law to know the differences between sealed docs and immunity or the fine legal details of it, but the way I understood it is that the deal with Acosta was to protect Epstein's associates (co-conspirators) from prosecution, as well as a much lighter sentence for Epstein. In fact, the article I linked to points that out. This is what the attorneys are requesting to be lifted (thrown out?) so the investigation can expand further and what the judge is deciding to do. I'm not sure if this is result of his death or if they would have argued this even if he was alive, but that's what all the articles I've read about it are implying.



                      Originally posted by myth View Post
                      It's not inexplicable. CP already hinted, but here: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/08/12/n...tein-barr.html

                      The whole prison is understaffed, and they're overworked. Sleeping on the job is not acceptable, but when you have people working crazy scheduels....people fall asleep. I also heard on a NY Times podcast that one of the employees were forced to come in on their day off, the other was on overtime. One wasn't even a correctional officer, but a different type of prison employee brought in to help plug the staffing gap.
                      Nope, there are a string of too many anomalies to assume they were just careless accidents, and this is even if I throw out the guard anomalies. I understand stuff happens with overworked staff, but it's beyond just that. I've researched it thoroughly and am even more convinced now than I was before.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by seanD View Post
                        Admittedly I don't know enough about the law to know the differences between sealed docs and immunity or the fine legal details of it, but the way I understood it is that the deal with Acosta was to protect Epstein's associates (co-conspirators) from prosecution, as well as a much lighter sentence for Epstein. In fact, the article I linked to points that out. This is what the attorneys are requesting to be lifted (thrown out?) so the investigation can expand further and what the judge is deciding to do. I'm not sure if this is result of his death or if they would have argued this even if he was alive, but that's what all the articles I've read about it are implying.





                        Nope, there are a string of too many anomalies to assume they were just careless accidents, and this is even if I throw out the guard anomalies. I understand stuff happens with overworked staff, but it's beyond just that. I've researched it thoroughly and am even more convinced now than I was before.
                        Because of your extensive experience in corrections or law enforcement? I'm sorry, but you're reading stuff on the internet and making conjecture without having a baseline for how far out your assumptions are. If could be a conspiracy, but we don't have anywhere near facts to make those sort of assessments.

                        Keep in mind that your primary source of information - news media - is just not very accurate. I've been on the inside of investigations and watched what different agencies report as fact many times. Very rarely are they dead accurate. Normally they have it mostly right, but details are plain wrong or the context given creates a false impression. Sometimes, they just don't have it right at all. And all to frequently I watch them report things that are factually incorrect....and they're rarely called on it, because the people who do know aren't in a position to talk to the press or release further information. And THIS is the quality of information from which you're basing your assumptions.
                        "If you believe, take the first step, it leads to Jesus Christ. If you don't believe, take the first step all the same, for you are bidden to take it. No one wants to know about your faith or unbelief, your orders are to perform the act of obedience on the spot. Then you will find yourself in the situation where faith becomes possible and where faith exists in the true sense of the word." - Dietrich Bonhoeffer, The Cost of Discipleship

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by myth View Post
                          Because of your extensive experience in corrections or law enforcement? I'm sorry, but you're reading stuff on the internet and making conjecture without having a baseline for how far out your assumptions are. If could be a conspiracy, but we don't have anywhere near facts to make those sort of assessments.

                          Keep in mind that your primary source of information - news media - is just not very accurate. I've been on the inside of investigations and watched what different agencies report as fact many times. Very rarely are they dead accurate. Normally they have it mostly right, but details are plain wrong or the context given creates a false impression. Sometimes, they just don't have it right at all. And all to frequently I watch them report things that are factually incorrect....and they're rarely called on it, because the people who do know aren't in a position to talk to the press or release further information. And THIS is the quality of information from which you're basing your assumptions.
                          I'm reading credible news sources, and not just one but multiple. How else are we to get the information? And since I'm fascinated with the story I've been following closely as it's developing. No offense, but just because you have experience doesn't necessarily mean you have any more insight as to the details of this situation than anyone else. You can certainly tell us what might have happened from your experience but not what did happen.

                          Btw, apparently the plea deal with Acosta was separate from the Florida state charge against Epstein. The plea deal, which provided immunity to both Epstein and his associates, was a result of a federal investigation which was subsequently shut down as a result of the deal. The federal indictment is what they're trying to unseal.

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                          • I've seen the media go ape about things that I personally know they don't really know as facts or even what they're looking at. At worst, they twist facts or antagonize the situation. At best, the media will only state that it LOOKS LIKE something happened or is may be the case or...whuddever. Their goal is VIEWERSHIP OR READERSHIP....everything else is secondary.
                            Watch your links! http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/fa...corumetiquette

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                            • Originally posted by DesertBerean View Post
                              I've seen the media go ape about things that I personally know they don't really know as facts or even what they're looking at. At worst, they twist facts or antagonize the situation. At best, the media will only state that it LOOKS LIKE something happened or is may be the case or...whuddever. Their goal is VIEWERSHIP OR READERSHIP....everything else is secondary.
                              True, which is why I've been following it closely to make sure to spot the things that have changed or any altered information. I've also been looking at different news reports that might be influenced by partisan bias one way or the other. For the most part the reported anomalies have been consistent, though with a bit more added detail with each report, with the exception of the report that the cameras were malfunctioning. I haven't been able to verify that.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by seanD View Post
                                I'm reading credible news sources, and not just one but multiple. How else are we to get the information? And since I'm fascinated with the story I've been following closely as it's developing. No offense, but just because you have experience doesn't necessarily mean you have any more insight as to the details of this situation than anyone else. You can certainly tell us what might have happened from your experience but not what did happen.

                                Btw, apparently the plea deal with Acosta was separate from the Florida state charge against Epstein. The plea deal, which provided immunity to both Epstein and his associates, was a result of a federal investigation which was subsequently shut down as a result of the deal. The federal indictment is what they're trying to unseal.
                                I don't have any more facts about the incident than you do.

                                I do, however, have experience in analyzing the data available and making decisions based on that information. I've investigated hangings, other suicides, and homicides before. I have advanced certifications in the subject matter, thousands of hours of continuing ed training within the field, and a degree in the subject matter at hand. I've spent time photographing neck injuries on suicides, stood over bodies while medical examiners conducted autopsies and discussed the injuries and cause of death, pulled and reviewed more hours of security camera video than I care to remember, consulted with digital forensic experts on multiple occasions, and processed plenty of crimes scenes. I've investigated (and charged) crimes where politicians and organizations tried to obstruct the case or influence the outcome of the process.

                                So I have a pretty good handle on how things happen in the world, since I spend all my time I work immersed in these issues. But hey, what do I know? You're free to speculate and be fascinated all you want, I'm just pointing out that you appear to be way out in left field here (based on the information that I've seen so far).

                                If you think even credible news sources don't get the facts wrong from time to time, then think again. I pay considerable attention to the news -- because like you said, it's the only source of information I have. But you have to take that all with a grain of salt. Major news outlets misrepresent the truth, too. It's their job to capture your interest and sell that attention to advertisers.

                                We can speculate all we want, but we'll never see the case file. And without seeing the actual information...we're just guessing the best we can. I'm just trying to make sure our assumptions here are grounded. Have a good night.
                                "If you believe, take the first step, it leads to Jesus Christ. If you don't believe, take the first step all the same, for you are bidden to take it. No one wants to know about your faith or unbelief, your orders are to perform the act of obedience on the spot. Then you will find yourself in the situation where faith becomes possible and where faith exists in the true sense of the word." - Dietrich Bonhoeffer, The Cost of Discipleship

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