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  • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
    It is absolutely sickening - that is NOT what unions were for!
    Unfortunately, as long as you pay your dues they'll pretty much support you regardless of what you did.

    I'm always still in trouble again

    "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
    "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
    "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

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    • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
      Unfortunately, as long as you pay your dues they'll pretty much support you regardless of what you did.
      And, to me, the absolute worst abuse of this is in the schools -- the National Education Association doesn't give a rat's hineybo about the students - they're all about protecting bad teachers.
      The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
        It is absolutely sickening - that is NOT what unions were for!
        By the end, I just started going to management myself if I had a problem with anything. Usually, they would fully play into the game and intentionally break the collective bargaining terms, daring the union to call them on it, but since I was a hard worker and got along fine with everybody (except the union boss), I found I had better results dealing with them myself and could generally come to an agreement.

        I'm fully aware not every manager out there is actually willing to talk to employees, though.

        (Incidentally, the union steward was the guy I mentioned in the other thread who told me that if society fell apart, he would come after "liberals like you" because he knew they wouldn't have guns. Scary stuff.)
        "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

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        • Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
          By the end, I just started going to management myself if I had a problem with anything. Usually, they would fully play into the game and intentionally break the collective bargaining terms, daring the union to call them on it, but since I was a hard worker and got along fine with everybody (except the union boss), I found I had better results dealing with them myself and could generally come to an agreement.

          I'm fully aware not every manager out there is actually willing to talk to employees, though.

          (Incidentally, the union steward was the guy I mentioned in the other thread who told me that if society fell apart, he would come after "liberals like you" because he knew they wouldn't have guns. Scary stuff.)
          Especially when you think about the origin of the term "going postal".
          The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

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          • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
            But those PESKY perforations! Just need to make sure they're not all lined up together.
            Perforated all over and it would be very difficult to make a rope out of it.
            "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

            "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

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            • Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
              Perforated all over and it would be very difficult to make a rope out of it.
              Although...

              I'm always still in trouble again

              "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
              "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
              "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

              Comment


              • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                Difficult is not impossible...

                But if it's really perforated all over, even making it into strands will be difficult as all get out. I'd have a lot of trouble - and I've got friends who spin who would probably throw a fit before even attempting it.

                Mind you, a restless sleeper is going to turn it into confetti so it wouldn't be a great sheet...

                Last edited by Teallaura; 08-19-2019, 07:02 PM.
                "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

                "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

                My Personal Blog

                My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

                Quill Sword

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                • Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
                  Doesn't matter - if you are under suspicion or investigation SHUT UP and GET A LAWYER.

                  The cops are NOT your friends - and they mean that bit about ANYTHING you say being used against you. No matter how innocent you are - shut up and lawyer up.

                  Even more so if you're guilty.

                  That's not assuming anything bad - it's just how the system works.

                  FYI: Manafort wouldn't have been convicted if he'd talked to counsel before the FBI interview.
                  I can't agree with this. It's never terrible advice to talk to a lawyer. But talking can to the police help you or someone else out, especially if you haven't done anything wrong. There are times when people talk and don't really give me much, but I have enough to charge them anyways. Other times, they talk and tell me their side of the story -- and I actually believe the story and decide not to charge them. Or maybe someone's made up an allegation and the suspect can provide an albi, but doesn't even know enough about the allegation (because they haven't talked to me) to know they can help themselves easily.

                  I tell people all the time: if you don't want to talk to me, then that's fine. But that means I'll make a decision about whether not to arrest you without hearing your side of the story. Once I've charged you you're paying a ton of money to a lawyer and have to deal with court, etc...when you possibly could have talked to me and avoided the charges. The case just doesn't magically go away because you decide not to talk to me.

                  Heck, last summer I had a victim file a report that I thought was BS. The suspect showed up while I was recovering "stolen" property. When I introduced myself and asked to talk to him, he lost his mind and screamed that he...ummm.....had nothing to say.... but she was lying. A brief conversation would have allowed me to understand why she was making up stuff against him, but he hates the cops so much he couldn't bring himself to talk to me and help himself out. If, however, he'd have explained to me how and why she was full of crap...I might have even been able to charge her with filing a false report.

                  Edit: I have had times when the person consults an attorney first and then comes (alone) to talk to me. Other times I've had WTINESSES be so paranoid they blew a years worth of savings to talk to a lawyer. The law office first convinced him he needed legal advice, then I had two phone calls with them and they sent him in anyways -- totally cooperative. I got what I needed, the lawyer got paid, and the only one who lost out was the paranoid guy who paid for a lawyer he didn't need with money he didn't have.
                  Last edited by myth; 08-19-2019, 07:50 PM.
                  "If you believe, take the first step, it leads to Jesus Christ. If you don't believe, take the first step all the same, for you are bidden to take it. No one wants to know about your faith or unbelief, your orders are to perform the act of obedience on the spot. Then you will find yourself in the situation where faith becomes possible and where faith exists in the true sense of the word." - Dietrich Bonhoeffer, The Cost of Discipleship

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                  • Originally posted by myth View Post
                    I can't agree with this. It's never terrible advice to talk to a lawyer. But talking can to the police help you or someone else out, especially if you haven't done anything wrong. There are times when people talk and don't really give me much, but I have enough to charge them anyways. Other times, they talk and tell me their side of the story -- and I actually believe the story and decide not to charge them. Or maybe someone's made up an allegation and the suspect can provide an albi, but doesn't even know enough about the allegation (because they haven't talked to me) to know they can help themselves easily.

                    I tell people all the time: if you don't want to talk to me, then that's fine. But that means I'll make a decision about whether not to arrest you without hearing your side of the story. Once I've charged you you're paying a ton of money to a lawyer and have to deal with court, etc...when you possibly could have talked to me and avoided the charges. The case just doesn't magically go away because you decide not to talk to me.

                    Heck, last summer I had a victim file a report that I thought was BS. The suspect showed up while I was recovering "stolen" property. When I introduced myself and asked to talk to him, he lost his mind and screamed that he...ummm.....had nothing to say.... but she was lying. A brief conversation would have allowed me to understand why she was making up stuff against him, but he hates the cops so much he couldn't bring himself to talk to me and help himself out. If, however, he'd have explained to me how and why she was full of crap...I might have even been able to charge her with filing a false report.
                    The problem is that it's too easy to say the wrong thing. Now, granted, this may not be necessary under some circumstances - but innocent people have run off at the mouth meaning to be helpful and managed instead to get themselves in worse trouble.

                    That's always a possibility - even great interviewers have that one guy that they just can't interview. They don't gel and neither 'gets' what the other is after - hilarity ensues. I've had patients that I'd have sworn were lying - or not - only to have a new interviewer get much better results. One patient was running me around and I was getting nowhere hunting a non-existent 'rapist' - when someone else talked to her she admitted she didn't want me thinking badly of her and that there was no rape. We got the guy in that day.

                    With a DIS, the worst that can happen is we don't get everyone treated and we get to do the whole thing again in a few months. With a cop, there's the real possibility of decades in prison (depending on the crime, obviously). Sure, sometimes that means causing yourself more trouble - but it can also spare someone innocent from being convicted by their own stupid words.
                    "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

                    "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

                    My Personal Blog

                    My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

                    Quill Sword

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by myth View Post
                      I can't agree with this. It's never terrible advice to talk to a lawyer. But talking can to the police help you or someone else out, especially if you haven't done anything wrong. There are times when people talk and don't really give me much, but I have enough to charge them anyways. Other times, they talk and tell me their side of the story -- and I actually believe the story and decide not to charge them. Or maybe someone's made up an allegation and the suspect can provide an albi, but doesn't even know enough about the allegation (because they haven't talked to me) to know they can help themselves easily.

                      I tell people all the time: if you don't want to talk to me, then that's fine. But that means I'll make a decision about whether not to arrest you without hearing your side of the story. Once I've charged you you're paying a ton of money to a lawyer and have to deal with court, etc...when you possibly could have talked to me and avoided the charges. The case just doesn't magically go away because you decide not to talk to me.

                      Heck, last summer I had a victim file a report that I thought was BS. The suspect showed up while I was recovering "stolen" property. When I introduced myself and asked to talk to him, he lost his mind and screamed that he...ummm.....had nothing to say.... but she was lying. A brief conversation would have allowed me to understand why she was making up stuff against him, but he hates the cops so much he couldn't bring himself to talk to me and help himself out. If, however, he'd have explained to me how and why she was full of crap...I might have even been able to charge her with filing a false report.

                      Edit: I have had times when the person consults an attorney first and then comes (alone) to talk to me. Other times I've had WTINESSES be so paranoid they blew a years worth of savings to talk to a lawyer. The law office first convinced him he needed legal advice, then I had two phone calls with them and they sent him in anyways -- totally cooperative. I got what I needed, the lawyer got paid, and the only one who lost out was the paranoid guy who paid for a lawyer he didn't need with money he didn't have.
                      Yeah, there really needs to be discretion - if talking to the police helps somebody, especially in the immediate, I see no problem with that. In fact, we have a moral responsibility.

                      My example was where you'd have to use a firearm in self-defense, but my concern in NOT talking to the police is simply because - even though you can be cleared criminally - there is nothing keeping the family of the deceased (or wounded) to sue you civilly. And where will they get their information? From police reports and witness statements.
                      The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
                        The problem is that it's too easy to say the wrong thing. Now, granted, this may not be necessary under some circumstances - but innocent people have run off at the mouth meaning to be helpful and managed instead to get themselves in worse trouble.

                        That's always a possibility - even great interviewers have that one guy that they just can't interview. They don't gel and neither 'gets' what the other is after - hilarity ensues. I've had patients that I'd have sworn were lying - or not - only to have a new interviewer get much better results. One patient was running me around and I was getting nowhere hunting a non-existent 'rapist' - when someone else talked to her she admitted she didn't want me thinking badly of her and that there was no rape. We got the guy in that day.

                        With a DIS, the worst that can happen is we don't get everyone treated and we get to do the whole thing again in a few months. With a cop, there's the real possibility of decades in prison (depending on the crime, obviously). Sure, sometimes that means causing yourself more trouble - but it can also spare someone innocent from being convicted by their own stupid words.
                        People don't get convicted just on their own word (well, not without a breakdown in the process). There has to be some corroboration. And I totally get what you're saying. Legal advice is great. But whether I wanted to ask for a lawyer would depend on how serious the potential charges are, what I did and whether it could be misconstrued, etc. To be honest, like 95% of people talk to me. Usually I get things that are marginally helpful the charging the suspect (because they did it). Sometimes I get GREAT stuff to help me charge the suspect. And sometimes they come out with stuff from left field that clears the whole thing up.

                        To be clear I generally work with people to give them time to consult an attorney first, unless there's a compelling reason to move forward with charges. Actually...recently got a conviction on a case like that. I spoke with her 3-4 times. First was an introduction -- she declined to talk about the case and said she wanted to talk to an attorney. Then I contacted her again, she said she wasn't going to talk to me about the case. Then I had to interview her as a witness about something else, so I just told her I'd confine my questions to the other subject -- she came in and that's how things played out, we didn't discuss the case against her. Then...I showed up and arrested her in front of her family and she felt like talking to me, but resisted because of what her attorney said. Worked out well for me...but then she was guilty and I had a good case.
                        "If you believe, take the first step, it leads to Jesus Christ. If you don't believe, take the first step all the same, for you are bidden to take it. No one wants to know about your faith or unbelief, your orders are to perform the act of obedience on the spot. Then you will find yourself in the situation where faith becomes possible and where faith exists in the true sense of the word." - Dietrich Bonhoeffer, The Cost of Discipleship

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                        • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                          Unfortunately, as long as you pay your dues they'll pretty much support you regardless of what you did.
                          Many of the unions today are corrupt themselves and are in it more for themselves, or more in cahoots with the employer, than they are in it to support of the employees. They certainly don't support the employee no matter what.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                            And yet they had no access to him.

                            Why do you believe the coroner when he said he found broken bones in his neck (which made people think he was murdered) but refuse to accept the autopsy that ruled it a suicide? If the coroner were in on it and faked the autopsy, he would never have made the first revelation about the broken bones or have said that they were inconsistent with a suicide.
                            I don't have an opinion on whether or not he committed suicide or was murdered (which I guess could be construed as "not accepting" that part of the coroner's report). The reason to accept the part about the broken bones is that is objectively verifiable fact. The conclusion -- death by suicide -- is subjective (but expert) opinion.

                            I'm with Cyril Wecht: The coroner should have said "Pending" as cause of death, and waited for the various related investigations to conclude, and considered their findings before issuing the final cause of death opinion.

                            Others -- Judge Crazy Eyes, IIRC -- have noted that they successfully prosecuted homicide cases that the coroner had ruled suicides.
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                            • Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
                              The problem is that it's too easy to say the wrong thing. Now, granted, this may not be necessary under some circumstances - but innocent people have run off at the mouth meaning to be helpful and managed instead to get themselves in worse trouble.

                              That's always a possibility - even great interviewers have that one guy that they just can't interview. They don't gel and neither 'gets' what the other is after - hilarity ensues. I've had patients that I'd have sworn were lying - or not - only to have a new interviewer get much better results. One patient was running me around and I was getting nowhere hunting a non-existent 'rapist' - when someone else talked to her she admitted she didn't want me thinking badly of her and that there was no rape. We got the guy in that day.

                              With a DIS, the worst that can happen is we don't get everyone treated and we get to do the whole thing again in a few months. With a cop, there's the real possibility of decades in prison (depending on the crime, obviously). Sure, sometimes that means causing yourself more trouble - but it can also spare someone innocent from being convicted by their own stupid words.
                              Yeah, I think it depends on the issue, but kind of along with what you're saying I see this video ALL of the time posted on other forums (particularly Reddit)



                              It's a "don't talk to cops" video with a presentation from a legal expert on the subject. I think there's wisdom here, though I think some people (especially those who post it a lot online) take it WAY too far. I've seen people take this so seriously that they recommend not talking to cops even if pulled over for a traffic violation, which seems to me to be a great way of getting yourself a ticket. There's a hilarious skit from Bob & Dave (Bob Odenkirk and David Cross) starring Keegan-Michael Key with a sov-cit type demonstrating your legal rights about talking to cops. I can't link it here because of language, but it's pretty much what I imagine those folks who take the "do not talk to cops" motto too far act like.

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                              • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                                It is absolutely sickening - that is NOT what unions were for!
                                I moderately despise Unions. Stories like this tend to increase my dislike of them.

                                (I have seen Trade Unions cause too much destruction to like them)
                                Be watchful, stand firm in the faith, act like men, be strong.
                                1 Corinthians 16:13

                                "...he [Doherty] is no historian and he is not even conversant with the historical discussions of the very matters he wants to pontificate on."
                                -Ben Witherington III

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