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To Reduce Gun Violence, Congress Must Address Mental Health

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  • #46
    Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
    That's true.

    More pertinently, it might be the case that the maker thought that any use of the red flag law would constitute an abuse.

    In searching, I didn't find any examples of cases that were clear abuses. I did find two or three cases where officers were fired at when attempting to conduct a confiscation.
    I was looking (sorta - kinda busy today) for the law itself and came across a story of an officer killing one of the gun owners.
    "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

    "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

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    • #47
      Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
      The Supreme Court already allows exceptions to the Second Amendment - so far incorporation hasn't resulted in changes at the Federal level - or all that many at the state level...
      are you saying that corporations can have guns?

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      • #48
        Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
        I don't think you're being condescending. I simply think we have a situation where different rights and needs are in tension and there's no easy solution.
        Agreed. And that probably has a lot with why it's not getting done.
        The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

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        • #49
          Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
          We have to be careful about calling anything unusual a red flag...
          I was referring to a study (now I'm gonna have to try to look it up) of schools in Florida where it was extremely obvious that there were seriously troubled students, but there was some kind of stigma that would cause the school to "look bad", so they routinely covered up situations that often involved multiple run-ins with local law enforcement.
          The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

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          • #50
            Originally posted by mikewhitney View Post
            are you saying that corporations can have guns?
            No, the Second Amendment was incorporated to apply to the states.
            "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

            "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

            My Personal Blog

            My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

            Quill Sword

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            • #51
              Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
              Which is why we put requirements with teeth - there better be grounds to believe this person is a danger to self or others....
              In Texas, the local Sheriff has authority, for example, to weigh in on "shall issue" cases of concealed carry licenses under the premise that, as a locally elected official, he/she is not as likely to be politically beholden to a particular party. It's assumed that he/she is more answerable to the people, who can fire his/her butt next election.

              One of the proposals I heard to day regarding any such Texas legislation is that it would involve a Sheriff (not a sheriff's deputy, but the County Sheriff), a Justice of the Peace, and a medical doctor.
              The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

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              • #52
                Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
                No, the Second Amendment was incorporated to apply to the states.
                I thought I said this. It was the fourteenth amendment which required states to protect the 14th amendment class of citizens on most of the bill of rights.

                It seems like we are saying the same thing, even if it doesn't sound like it.

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                • #53
                  Originally posted by mikewhitney View Post
                  I thought I said this. It was the fourteenth amendment which required states to protect the 14th amendment class of citizens on most of the bill of rights.

                  It seems like we are saying the same thing, even if it doesn't sound like it.
                  The process of applying an amendment to the states via the Fourteenth Amendment is called incorporation.

                  "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

                  "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

                  My Personal Blog

                  My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

                  Quill Sword

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                  • #54
                    A Secret Service report published last month, “Mass Attacks in Public Spaces,” found that 67 percent of the suspects displayed symptoms of mental illness or emotional disturbance. In 93 percent, the suspects had a history of threats or other troubling communications.
                    The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
                      We're going to have to deal with the nonsense that you have the 'right' to be so dysfunctional that you end up on the street.
                      Probably for another thread, but I think this is a legit concern, especially considering the many abuses that were prevalent in asylums in the 19th and 20th century. As a prominent psychiatrist/psychologist himself, I think Thomas Szasz's work on this subject is relevant. Here's a brief summary of his views from Wikipedia,
                      Abolition of the insanity defense and involuntary hospitalization
                      Szasz believed that testimony about the mental competence of a defendant should not be admissible in trials. Psychiatrists testifying about the mental state of an accused person's mind have about as much business as a priest testifying about the religious state of a person's soul in our courts. Insanity was a legal tactic invented to circumvent the punishments of the Church, which at the time included confiscation of the property of those who committed suicide, often leaving widows and orphans destitute. Only an insane person would do such a thing to his widow and children, it was successfully argued. This is legal mercy masquerading as medicine, according to Szasz.

                      No one should be deprived of liberty unless he is found guilty of a criminal offense. Depriving a person of liberty for what is said to be his own good is immoral. Just as a person suffering from terminal cancer may refuse treatment, so should a person be able to refuse psychiatric treatment.

                      I actually think his view goes too far, and I definitely think it's in society's best interest to offer help to the mentally ill, even if they're competent enough to refuse it, but thinking back to past psychiatric measures, and keeping in consideration questions on autonomy, I find myself divided on the issue.

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                      • #56
                        Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
                        Wouldn't work - we value the right greatly - and we should - but we NEED transportation. That, and one crazy is only going to sway the one in a million election. But that same crazy with a two ton bullet can kill. There's a more solid rationale - and we need to do it anyway. Seriously, if he/she is that far gone you do NOT want them behind the wheel or a trigger!
                        Well its logical. Do you want people who are too crazy to own a gun voting?

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                        • #57
                          Originally posted by Adrift View Post
                          Probably for another thread, but I think this is a legit concern, especially considering the many abuses that were prevalent in asylums in the 19th and 20th century. As a prominent psychiatrist/psychologist himself, I think Thomas Szasz's work on this subject is relevant. Here's a brief summary of his views from Wikipedia,
                          Abolition of the insanity defense and involuntary hospitalization
                          Szasz believed that testimony about the mental competence of a defendant should not be admissible in trials. Psychiatrists testifying about the mental state of an accused person's mind have about as much business as a priest testifying about the religious state of a person's soul in our courts. Insanity was a legal tactic invented to circumvent the punishments of the Church, which at the time included confiscation of the property of those who committed suicide, often leaving widows and orphans destitute. Only an insane person would do such a thing to his widow and children, it was successfully argued. This is legal mercy masquerading as medicine, according to Szasz.

                          No one should be deprived of liberty unless he is found guilty of a criminal offense. Depriving a person of liberty for what is said to be his own good is immoral. Just as a person suffering from terminal cancer may refuse treatment, so should a person be able to refuse psychiatric treatment.

                          I actually think his view goes too far, and I definitely think it's in society's best interest to offer help to the mentally ill, even if they're competent enough to refuse it, but thinking back to past psychiatric measures, and keeping in consideration questions on autonomy, I find myself divided on the issue.
                          I remember my psychology professor in seminary --- he seemed WAY too focused on demanding that "psychology is an actual science, just like math and physics...." He would come up with some strange ideas, but I aced his classes because I 'played the game'.
                          The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

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                          • #58
                            Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                            I remember my psychology professor in seminary --- he seemed WAY too focused on demanding that "psychology is an actual science, just like math and physics...." He would come up with some strange ideas, but I aced his classes because I 'played the game'.
                            Yeah, even though he was an atheist, Szasz had an issue with the state of psychiatry as a sort of secular alternative to religion, and had major concerns with people confusing it with the harder sciences, and a cure-all for all that ailed society, and noted the troubling history of psychiatry when compounded with state institutions as seen in Nazi Germany and in communist nations.

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                            • #59
                              Well my understanding of the "red flag" law would be that if a person sets off one of the flags, the police has the right to bring that person before a judge for a hearing, with his lawyer, and only after a judge has ruled can the person's guns be taken away. That is to allow due process. I think they will also need to have regular hearings to re-evaluate the person as time goes on.

                              I am not sure, and I hope it isn't just up to a judge, but the guy has to have professional evaluation by a medical professional.

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                              • #60
                                Originally posted by Adrift View Post
                                Yeah, even though he was an atheist, Szasz had an issue with the state of psychiatry as a sort of secular alternative to religion, and had major concerns with people confusing it with the harder sciences, and a cure-all for all that ailed society, and noted the troubling history of psychiatry when compounded with state institutions as seen in Nazi Germany and in communist nations.
                                Remember, until 1973, psychiatry used to tell us homosexuality was a mental illness!
                                The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                                Comment

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