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Thread: To Reduce Gun Violence, Congress Must Address Mental Health

  1. #51
    See, the Thing is... Cow Poke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teallaura View Post
    Which is why we put requirements with teeth - there better be grounds to believe this person is a danger to self or others....
    In Texas, the local Sheriff has authority, for example, to weigh in on "shall issue" cases of concealed carry licenses under the premise that, as a locally elected official, he/she is not as likely to be politically beholden to a particular party. It's assumed that he/she is more answerable to the people, who can fire his/her butt next election.

    One of the proposals I heard to day regarding any such Texas legislation is that it would involve a Sheriff (not a sheriff's deputy, but the County Sheriff), a Justice of the Peace, and a medical doctor.
    Every problem is the result of a previous solution.

  2. #52
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teallaura View Post
    No, the Second Amendment was incorporated to apply to the states.
    I thought I said this. It was the fourteenth amendment which required states to protect the 14th amendment class of citizens on most of the bill of rights.

    It seems like we are saying the same thing, even if it doesn't sound like it.

  3. #53
    tWebber Teallaura's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikewhitney View Post
    I thought I said this. It was the fourteenth amendment which required states to protect the 14th amendment class of citizens on most of the bill of rights.

    It seems like we are saying the same thing, even if it doesn't sound like it.
    The process of applying an amendment to the states via the Fourteenth Amendment is called incorporation.


  4. #54
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    A Secret Service report published last month, “Mass Attacks in Public Spaces,” found that 67 percent of the suspects displayed symptoms of mental illness or emotional disturbance. In 93 percent, the suspects had a history of threats or other troubling communications.
    Every problem is the result of a previous solution.

  5. #55
    tWebber Adrift's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teallaura View Post
    We're going to have to deal with the nonsense that you have the 'right' to be so dysfunctional that you end up on the street.
    Probably for another thread, but I think this is a legit concern, especially considering the many abuses that were prevalent in asylums in the 19th and 20th century. As a prominent psychiatrist/psychologist himself, I think Thomas Szasz's work on this subject is relevant. Here's a brief summary of his views from Wikipedia,

    Abolition of the insanity defense and involuntary hospitalization
    Szasz believed that testimony about the mental competence of a defendant should not be admissible in trials. Psychiatrists testifying about the mental state of an accused person's mind have about as much business as a priest testifying about the religious state of a person's soul in our courts. Insanity was a legal tactic invented to circumvent the punishments of the Church, which at the time included confiscation of the property of those who committed suicide, often leaving widows and orphans destitute. Only an insane person would do such a thing to his widow and children, it was successfully argued. This is legal mercy masquerading as medicine, according to Szasz.

    No one should be deprived of liberty unless he is found guilty of a criminal offense. Depriving a person of liberty for what is said to be his own good is immoral. Just as a person suffering from terminal cancer may refuse treatment, so should a person be able to refuse psychiatric treatment.

    I actually think his view goes too far, and I definitely think it's in society's best interest to offer help to the mentally ill, even if they're competent enough to refuse it, but thinking back to past psychiatric measures, and keeping in consideration questions on autonomy, I find myself divided on the issue.

  6. #56
    Troll Magnet Sparko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teallaura View Post
    Wouldn't work - we value the right greatly - and we should - but we NEED transportation. That, and one crazy is only going to sway the one in a million election. But that same crazy with a two ton bullet can kill. There's a more solid rationale - and we need to do it anyway. Seriously, if he/she is that far gone you do NOT want them behind the wheel or a trigger!
    Well its logical. Do you want people who are too crazy to own a gun voting?

  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adrift View Post
    Probably for another thread, but I think this is a legit concern, especially considering the many abuses that were prevalent in asylums in the 19th and 20th century. As a prominent psychiatrist/psychologist himself, I think Thomas Szasz's work on this subject is relevant. Here's a brief summary of his views from Wikipedia,

    Abolition of the insanity defense and involuntary hospitalization
    Szasz believed that testimony about the mental competence of a defendant should not be admissible in trials. Psychiatrists testifying about the mental state of an accused person's mind have about as much business as a priest testifying about the religious state of a person's soul in our courts. Insanity was a legal tactic invented to circumvent the punishments of the Church, which at the time included confiscation of the property of those who committed suicide, often leaving widows and orphans destitute. Only an insane person would do such a thing to his widow and children, it was successfully argued. This is legal mercy masquerading as medicine, according to Szasz.

    No one should be deprived of liberty unless he is found guilty of a criminal offense. Depriving a person of liberty for what is said to be his own good is immoral. Just as a person suffering from terminal cancer may refuse treatment, so should a person be able to refuse psychiatric treatment.

    I actually think his view goes too far, and I definitely think it's in society's best interest to offer help to the mentally ill, even if they're competent enough to refuse it, but thinking back to past psychiatric measures, and keeping in consideration questions on autonomy, I find myself divided on the issue.
    I remember my psychology professor in seminary --- he seemed WAY too focused on demanding that "psychology is an actual science, just like math and physics...." He would come up with some strange ideas, but I aced his classes because I 'played the game'.
    Every problem is the result of a previous solution.

  8. Amen Adrift amen'd this post.
  9. #58
    tWebber Adrift's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cow Poke View Post
    I remember my psychology professor in seminary --- he seemed WAY too focused on demanding that "psychology is an actual science, just like math and physics...." He would come up with some strange ideas, but I aced his classes because I 'played the game'.
    Yeah, even though he was an atheist, Szasz had an issue with the state of psychiatry as a sort of secular alternative to religion, and had major concerns with people confusing it with the harder sciences, and a cure-all for all that ailed society, and noted the troubling history of psychiatry when compounded with state institutions as seen in Nazi Germany and in communist nations.

  10. Amen Cow Poke, Teallaura amen'd this post.
  11. #59
    Troll Magnet Sparko's Avatar
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    Well my understanding of the "red flag" law would be that if a person sets off one of the flags, the police has the right to bring that person before a judge for a hearing, with his lawyer, and only after a judge has ruled can the person's guns be taken away. That is to allow due process. I think they will also need to have regular hearings to re-evaluate the person as time goes on.

    I am not sure, and I hope it isn't just up to a judge, but the guy has to have professional evaluation by a medical professional.

  12. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adrift View Post
    Yeah, even though he was an atheist, Szasz had an issue with the state of psychiatry as a sort of secular alternative to religion, and had major concerns with people confusing it with the harder sciences, and a cure-all for all that ailed society, and noted the troubling history of psychiatry when compounded with state institutions as seen in Nazi Germany and in communist nations.
    Remember, until 1973, psychiatry used to tell us homosexuality was a mental illness!
    Every problem is the result of a previous solution.

  13. Amen Adrift amen'd this post.

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