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Steven Anderson on Mount Athos

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  • #16
    I've always wondered, wouldn't the saints need to be granted a level of omniscience in order to hear the prayers offered to them? How does that work?
    Curiosity never hurt anyone. It was stupidity that killed the cat.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by QuantaFille View Post
      I've always wondered, wouldn't the saints need to be granted a level of omniscience in order to hear the prayers offered to them? How does that work?
      What the Orthodox say, I don’t know - though Origen touches on the matter in his treatise On Prayer.

      IMO, the Saints in Heaven do not need to be omniscient - they need to be, and in Heaven they are, full of God’s Love. The more people love each other, the more united with each other they are, and the better they know each other. Love attracts people to each other, and conforms people to each other. And this is true in normal human relations. But the Saints in Heaven are loved by God, so they are conformed to Christ, Who dwells in them by His Holy Spirit, and Christ is formed in them: they are, in effect, created, limited miniature editions of Christ - they are created extensions of Him. (That, ISTM, is part of what creatures are for - the Logos made man is the Exemplar and Model of all mankind, and of all creatures; to be created at all, is to be fulfilled only in Christ.)

      The Saints in Heaven have His Heart in them, His Mind, His Purpose, His Obedience, His Will, and (in due measure) His Grace. Since they share in His Sonship by adoption as sons, His Grace, His Life, His Spirit, His Sufferings, His Divine Nature (in a manner fitting their creatureliness), His Virtues, and in so much else that is His by right and theirs by His Grace, it stands to reason (to put it no more strongly) that His Love for the Church on Earth should be expressed through and by them. “Their” intercession, is simply His intercession, through them. They do in Heaven, in the full and unclouded Light of God’s Presence, what they did in the partial light of faith on Earth. We do not “know, as we are known” - they do. They live the parts of 1 Corinthians 13 which we can as yet only hope for. So they are very much better off than we are.

      Considerations of space and of objections like the Overworked Telephonist problem - “How can a single Saint “field” a million prayers at once ?” STM to make the mistake of transferring the conditions of Earth, to Heaven. It’s like thinking of the Ascension of Christ, *as though* the Glorified Christ were subject to the same conditions as a Saturn V rocket. If Christians can be “seated in the heavenlies in Christ”, and yet be on Earth, why should the Saints in Heaven in Christ be unable to know of Earthly things whatever God wills them to know ? What the Saints are believed to be able to do, is not in origin from them at all, but is God’s Working in them.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Rushing Jaws View Post
        What the Orthodox say, I don’t know - though Origen touches on the matter in his treatise On Prayer.

        IMO, the Saints in Heaven do not need to be omniscient - they need to be, and in Heaven they are, full of God’s Love. The more people love each other, the more united with each other they are, and the better they know each other. Love attracts people to each other, and conforms people to each other. And this is true in normal human relations. But the Saints in Heaven are loved by God, so they are conformed to Christ, Who dwells in them by His Holy Spirit, and Christ is formed in them: they are, in effect, created, limited miniature editions of Christ - they are created extensions of Him. (That, ISTM, is part of what creatures are for - the Logos made man is the Exemplar and Model of all mankind, and of all creatures; to be created at all, is to be fulfilled only in Christ.)

        The Saints in Heaven have His Heart in them, His Mind, His Purpose, His Obedience, His Will, and (in due measure) His Grace. Since they share in His Sonship by adoption as sons, His Grace, His Life, His Spirit, His Sufferings, His Divine Nature (in a manner fitting their creatureliness), His Virtues, and in so much else that is His by right and theirs by His Grace, it stands to reason (to put it no more strongly) that His Love for the Church on Earth should be expressed through and by them. “Their” intercession, is simply His intercession, through them. They do in Heaven, in the full and unclouded Light of God’s Presence, what they did in the partial light of faith on Earth. We do not “know, as we are known” - they do. They live the parts of 1 Corinthians 13 which we can as yet only hope for. So they are very much better off than we are.

        Considerations of space and of objections like the Overworked Telephonist problem - “How can a single Saint “field” a million prayers at once ?” STM to make the mistake of transferring the conditions of Earth, to Heaven. It’s like thinking of the Ascension of Christ, *as though* the Glorified Christ were subject to the same conditions as a Saturn V rocket. If Christians can be “seated in the heavenlies in Christ”, and yet be on Earth, why should the Saints in Heaven in Christ be unable to know of Earthly things whatever God wills them to know ? What the Saints are believed to be able to do, is not in origin from them at all, but is God’s Working in them.
        That seems to render prayer to the saints as, at best, superfluous. But I do know Origen was a bit of a speculative thinker so there's a good chance he wasn't dogmatic about this anyway.
        "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

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        • #19
          Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
          That seems to render prayer to the saints as, at best, superfluous. But I do know Origen was a bit of a speculative thinker so there's a good chance he wasn't dogmatic about this anyway.
          Yes and no. In a sense, prayer to the saints is superfluous because we could just directly ask God instead. On the other hand, prayer to the saints establishes a sense of koininia with them. The church consists of the living and those who have fallen asleep. Since becoming Orthodox, I feel a much, much deeper connection to those who have gone before.
          Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

          Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
          sigpic
          I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Apologiaphoenix View Post
            I'm with Norrin on this one and yes, if the practice wasn't going on in the time of say, Justin Martyr, why should we find him saying something against it? If we find him making several statements on prayer and none of them talk about saints, then we have reason to be suspicious.
            Prayer to the saints is emphatically NOT necromantic. The charge is akin to saying the practice is demonic, a highly serious charge (to say the least). Do you really want to go there?

            Also, argument from silence duly noted. Does Justin Martyr say anything about asking others to pray for him?
            Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

            Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
            sigpic
            I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

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            • #21
              Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
              Prayer to the saints is emphatically NOT necromantic. The charge is akin to saying the practice is demonic, a highly serious charge (to say the least). Do you really want to go there?

              Also, argument from silence duly noted. Does Justin Martyr say anything about asking others to pray for him?
              Nothing wrong with asking others, but I have no reason to believe dead saints can hear. Nothing in Scripture indicates that they can and prayer is always done to some deity in there.

              The problem with saying it's an argument from silence is the assumption that the practice was going on back then and since Justin said nothing against it, it must be okay. If it wasn't going on, why would we expect Justin to say anything about it? I might as well say the pre-trib rapture is supported by the Fathers because they say nothing against it.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by Apologiaphoenix View Post
                Nothing wrong with asking others, but I have no reason to believe dead saints can hear. Nothing in Scripture indicates that they can and prayer is always done to some deity in there.
                Are you paying attention, Nick? Prayer to "dead" saints has produced results recorded about as far back as the practice is attested. Someone is honoring the prayers, yes? I disagree that prayer is always done to some deity in the OT. Prayers (requests) are not infrequently made to other people - who happen to still be alive, but this idea that prayer is only towards heaven is AFAICT a peculiarity of modern Protestant English (even then, the word is still used in legal contexts).
                The problem with saying it's an argument from silence is the assumption that the practice was going on back then and since Justin said nothing against it, it must be okay. If it wasn't going on, why would we expect Justin to say anything about it? I might as well say the pre-trib rapture is supported by the Fathers because they say nothing against it.
                Again, you appear to be lacking attention to the argument I'm making. I never said it was definitely going on back then, because that would be an argument from silence. I'm calling YOU out for making an argument from silence - and your response is to burn a pile of straw. C'mon, Nick, you're smarter than that.

                What I know is that prayer to the saints is attested by the third century (see the link RJ posted), and it appears as an established practice; no argument needed to be made that it was okay to do. That tells me it had been going on long enough to become normative. I don't know when the practice started; all I know is that it was early, noncontroversial, and it works. When is the practice first condemned?
                Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                sigpic
                I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                  Are you paying attention, Nick? Prayer to "dead" saints has produced results recorded about as far back as the practice is attested. Someone is honoring the prayers, yes? I disagree that prayer is always done to some deity in the OT. Prayers (requests) are not infrequently made to other people - who happen to still be alive, but this idea that prayer is only towards heaven is AFAICT a peculiarity of modern Protestant English (even then, the word is still used in legal contexts).
                  I heard it, but I am not convinced because nothing in Scripture indicates this to me and I am sure there are many other practices that "work" that I would disagree with.

                  Again, you appear to be lacking attention to the argument I'm making. I never said it was definitely going on back then, because that would be an argument from silence. I'm calling YOU out for making an argument from silence - and your response is to burn a pile of straw. C'mon, Nick, you're smarter than that.
                  If I am told a practice is apostolic yet I see no mention of it very early on from the apostles, then I question if it is apostolic.

                  What I know is that prayer to the saints is attested by the third century (see the link RJ posted), and it appears as an established practice; no argument needed to be made that it was okay to do. That tells me it had been going on long enough to become normative. I don't know when the practice started; all I know is that it was early, noncontroversial, and it works. When is the practice first condemned?
                  I see the link, but I also know the dating is not an open and shut case. Some date it to the fifth century. We also don't know who wrote it. Was it a Christian sect? Was it a non-Christian sect? Who knows? Hard to say this is normative Christian practice if we have one instance that we have disputes on date and we don't know who said it.

                  As for when it's first condemned, I would want to look into that a bit more. My main question is with the idea that it's apostolic.

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